[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not sure why a Necromantic Tradition is hard?

Possession
Uses Spirits of Man for all the different tasks, "ghosts".
Flavor the spells

Just say that he uses prepared corpses for 'vessels'

If he tries to use a living vessel, just say no.. that's not how his tradition works.

With the exception of Possession Spirits, When I created my Necromancer, this is pretty much how I went about it... Reflavoring of the Spells works out great... mechanics are the same, visual effects are a tad different... as for Spirit Types...

Well, I had
Combat: Guardian (Death Spirits); Could aslo go Earth Spirits (Zombu)
Detection: Guidance (Ghosts - Ancestor SPirits)
Health: Water (Blood/Viscera Spirits)
Illusion: Air (Ghosts - Poltergeist Spirits)
Manipulation: Man (Spectre - Malevolent Spirits)

Dark King as Mentor
Heavy on Detection, Health, and Manipulation Spells

He was a lot of fun...

[Neraph]

Why do people think you have to have a mentor spirit? I mean they're nice, but in no way central to actually playing a mage.

[Ascalaphus]

It does not have to be the truth, just the truth as the player/tradition see it. A christian theurgist might think he is summoning an angel and it may even look like one, that does not mean its anything more than a air spirit though that looks weird due the the summoning mages belief system. There are people who summon ancestor spirits in the game, they sure as heck think its an ancestor, it looks like one, acts like one etc. and yet many people don't believe it is. Hermetics will continue to think the spirit is just an energy pattern shaped by the casters belief system for example.

The problem is that generic spirits posing as ancestors, don't really have the memories and such of those specific ancestors; you can't query them about things that you don't know. At least IIRC even Guidance spirits don't get to start with random Knowledges as skills?

[Kingboy]

Why do people think you have to have a mentor spirit?

I don't think he said you have to take a mentor spirit, just that he took one, likely for background and flavour.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't think he said you have to take a mentor spirit, just that he took one, likely for background and flavour.

Pretty Much, yeah... Dark King was an aspect of the way the character performed magic; and it had the benefit of actually fitting the Tradition as I wrote it up...

I happen to like the concept of a Mentor Spirit, and though I do not alwyas obtain one for my magical characters, when I do, they happen to flesh out the idea of the Character and his interpretations of the Tradition he is part of. Win/Win in my opinion...

[Shinobi Killfist]

The problem is that generic spirits posing as ancestors, don't really have the memories and such of those specific ancestors; you can't query them about things that you don't know. At least IIRC even Guidance spirits don't get to start with random Knowledges as skills?

Not stated is not the same thing as not having.

Street magic page,90 "Some spirits exhibit knowledge of concepts and conventions such as language, names, and popular culture that heavily imply
or, some will undoubtedly say, prove, that these are creations of the magician’s own mind. Paradoxical then are the documented instances where other spirits demonstrate knowledge
and memories consistent with having independently existed in a particular location or even in another world altogether for much longer periods of time."

It seems to me that they do have knowledge skills, but they do not show up since what the skills would be vary by tradition and perhaps even mentor spirit. Everything out there has knowledge skills to some degree, they just are rarely stated unless it is important to the game some how. Ancestor spirits might have more knowledge skills based on what happened when they were alive, though a spirit having trouble remembering things in not uncommon in stories. Other spirits might have more knowledge about things magical or extraplanor or maybe even current events. Your tradition, personality, mentor spirit all can have an effect on what you summon and what range of knowledge would be available to the spirit. And if need it stated out divination can cover a range of it, task and guardian spirits can learn skills that represent knowledge of the ancestor. Other areas the spirit has forgotten or is compelled not to speak of in death. So if you don't want the spirit to answer who killed you or other plot event, the spirit did not see the killer, the spirit seems terrified and refuses to answer, you can't seem to summon that particular spirit there is interference etc.

[Neraph]

Pretty Much, yeah... Dark King was an aspect of the way the character performed magic; and it had the benefit of actually fitting the Tradition as I wrote it up...

I happen to like the concept of a Mentor Spirit, and though I do not alwyas obtain one for my magical characters, when I do, they happen to flesh out the idea of the Character and his interpretations of the Tradition he is part of. Win/Win in my opinion...

Ok.

[Dakka Dakka]

No matter what knowledge a spirit may have, there is no way for the "necromancer" to summon a specific spirit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No matter what knowledge a spirit may have, there is no way for the "necromancer" to summon a specific spirit.

Says Who? The rules are not clear on that, and if a particular spirit works better for the flavor of the game, rather than generic spirit X, then where is that prohibited? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Named spirits are encountered on many occassions, and at least some aspects of the game support that interpretation... ALL Free spirits in Canon have Names, for example... Seems like a particular spirit to me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neraph]

Says Who? The rules are not clear on that, and if a particular spirit works better for the flavor of the game, rather than generic spirit X, then where is that prohibited? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Scenario time!

Ok, team needs to get info out of Person A. They kill Person A, the necromancer summons up his spirit, then he commands the spirit to tell them the info (not really listed, but I'd give it a Service of 1. Then again, I wouldn't even allow it).

[Stahlseele]

Make him an ex cop from the homicide squad . . i mean, what would be easier than to summon up the spirit of the dead corpse and ask it "how did you die?" and "who did it?"
He'd lose his job over it, because he would be violating so many regulations (hint, that's the supposed reason) and the fact that people would be jealous over his success rate and appalled at his methods . .
Don't think it works? read up in 6WA, it's in there. The first case solved by application of magic/summoning, the summoner summoned the spirit of the dead person and by studying it's actions and reactions figured out who the murderer was . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Scenario time!

Ok, team needs to get info out of Person A. They kill Person A, the necromancer summons up his spirit, then he commands the spirit to tell them the info (not really listed, but I'd give it a Service of 1. Then again, I wouldn't even allow it).

And your point? You can get the exact same information out of a Mind Probe, or other Detection Spells... And well, once a team gets a reputation for such dark magic, well......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Thanks for the Canon Reference as well Stahlseele...

No Difference...

[Neraph]

And your point? You can get the exact same information out of a Mind Probe, or other Detection Spells... And well, once a team gets a reputation for such dark magic, well......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Thanks for the Canon Reference as well Stahlseele...

No Difference...

Murder and Conjuring is easier than an opposed Test for Mind Probe or other detection spells.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Murder and Conjuring is easier than an opposed Test for Mind Probe or other detection spells.

But there is still no difference in end effect... Besides, Murder has its own consequences involved...

And besides, you can reduce a target's willpower a number of ways to reduce resistance to the Mind Probe. Average Spellcasting Dice Pool for a Spellcaster here on Dumpshock is in the Mid teens (Conservatively), and the average Willpower is 5 (Further reduced by Drugs or spells)... In the end, there is no contest, the Mind Probe (Or other appropriate Detection Spell) will indeed get what you are looking for.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Besides, are you really goint to tell me that you will be able to know ahead of time the power level (Force) of the "Ghost" you just created? One that, when summoned after being murdered, is highly likely to spend Edge to resist the summons (Assuming you know his true name of Course, which will be doubtful, as he would probably go by another identifier once ghosted)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Neraph]

Eh, point. I just don't like the idea of being able to summon specific people. That's just too John Edwards for me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Eh, point. I just don't like the idea of being able to summon specific people. That's just too John Edwards for me.

Heheheh... Yeah, I understand the sentiment... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Says Who? The rules are not clear on that, and if a particular spirit works better for the flavor of the game, rather than generic spirit X, then where is that prohibited? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

It is prohibited by the spirits's stats. They don't have any knowledge skills. Also the Conjuror only has the choice spirit type force and optional powers. He cannot choose anything else, IIRC not even the spirits appearance.

Named spirits are encountered on many occassions, and at least some aspects of the game support that interpretation... ALL Free spirits in Canon have Names, for example... Seems like a particular spirit to me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Unless I'm mistaken all named spirits are Free or other unsummonable spirits.

[Traul]

It is prohibited by the spirits's stats. They don't have any knowledge skills.

Neither do Great Dragons.

[Dakka Dakka]

Neither do Great Dragons.

I doubt you can summon them either. The point is if you can't choose if and which knowledge is possessed by a spirit, you can't summon a specific one e.g. the spirit of Abraham Lincoln. This makes communing with the dead and summoning spirit of specific dead people, which are important parts of the necromancer concept, impossible.

You could however easily play a character believing to be a necromancer, but he is just as deluded as the psionics in SR.

[Stahlseele]

Read the burning times lately?
Also, as i mentioned, it's in 6wa

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I doubt you can summon them either. The point is if you can't choose if and which knowledge is possessed by a spirit, you can't summon a specific one e.g. the spirit of Abraham Lincoln. This makes communing with the dead and summoning spirit of specific dead people, which are important parts of the necromancer concept, impossible.

You could however easily play a character believing to be a necromancer, but he is just as deluded as the psionics in SR.

But, that is all the province of the Game Master... There are no Knowledge Skills for any opponents in the books either, and yet, I would argue that they do indeed have them. They are not included because to do so would remove any input the Game Master would have into the motivations of the respective character. Everyone has Knowledge Skills (at a minimum (3x(Int+Log)), it is impossible to remove them if you expect NPC's to actually interact with the real world at all...

Just sayin'

And just because you have a Tradition that is not produced by the Developers does not mean that you cannot use real world ideas to supply a workable Tradition for Shadowrun Magic. There are rules for creating them after all, which makes any such creation Canon (at least for that table). And your comparison is invalid... Necromancy is a valid Magical Tradition... Psionics is a Scientific Application/Belief of Mind over Environment/Matter... not the same thing at all...

Additionally, it is a Canon fact that you can quest to the Astral Planes for ANY Spirits True Name... ergo, spirits have names (likely both True Names and a more common Summoning Name; it only makes sense)... As such, our useage of Summoning Names is valid and viable. You may not like that option, but it does not mean that it does not exist...

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

But, that is all the province of the Game Master... There are no Knowledge Skills for any opponents in the books either, and yet, I would argue that they do indeed have them. They are not included because to do so would remove any input the Game Master would have into the motivations of the respective character. Everyone has Knowledge Skills (at a minimum (3x(Int+Log)), it is impossible to remove them if you expect NPC's to actually interact with the real world at all...

You got a point there.

And just because you have a Tradition that is not produced by the Developers does not mean that you cannot use real world ideas to supply a workable Tradition for Shadowrun Magic. There are rules for creating them after all, which makes any such creation Canon (at least for that table). And your comparison is invalid... Necromancy is a valid Magical Tradition... Psionics is a Scientific Application/Belief of Mind over Environment/Matter... not the same thing at all...

Agreed, but a fan created tradition should not be able to do things no other tradition can. Summoning spirits of specific people is a considerable advantage IMHO.

Additionally, it is a Canon fact that you can quest to the Astral Planes for ANY Spirits True Name... ergo, spirits have names (likely both True Names and a more common Summoning Name; it only makes sense)... As such, our useage of Summoning Names is valid and viable. You may not like that option, but it does not mean that it does not exist...

If summonable spirits have true names, why would you go on an astral quest to acquire them? Just summon the spirit and order it to tell you.

[Hedrik]

There is no rule that keep us from designing our own 'necromancer' spells.
I would like:
Animate Dead
a bit like control actions but with restricted target (only corpses). Drain would be physical +1. range LOS, restricted -1 (maybe area +1), sustained +0, physical manipulation +0, resulting in +0 or (+2 area)
A dead body can be controlled by the caster (no orders but direct control), spellcasting hits determine hit points of the zombie and/or 'attack skill'

or
Questioning the dead:
like mind probe with restriced targed and touch range. Drain would be: mana detection +0 (maybe physical +1, it's hard to tell), touch range with restricted target -3 (only dead), invasive analyse detection +4, resulting in +1 (if phisical +2)
Spellcasting against object resistance (2 or more if longer dead or the corpse is in bad condition), Per Net hit one Yes/No question can be extracted from the decaying brain.

I don't think these spells would contradict the limitations to spellcasting but I'm interessed in your opinions.

[Hagga]

Says Who? The rules are not clear on that, and if a particular spirit works better for the flavor of the game, rather than generic spirit X, then where is that prohibited? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Named spirits are encountered on many occassions, and at least some aspects of the game support that interpretation... ALL Free spirits in Canon have Names, for example... Seems like a particular spirit to me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

The fluff is pretty clear on it, though

[Dakka Dakka]

The fluff is pretty clear on it, though

Care to elaborate? Are you contradicting Tymeaus Jalynsfein or backing him up?