Metal storm...again, Where are they now? Options

[Doc Chase]

Food for thought - since it already fires electronically, shouldn't it retroactively get a RC of 1 due to Arsenal?

It basically does - recoil is handled as a SA as it is.

[Sengir]

The point was

..that Traul said "IP laws are still important in 207x" and I said "IP laws don't seem to be enforced too much, since extracting a scientist makes no sense if all his work is copyrighted and you have to respect the trillion of NDAs he's bound to". We were not even talking about a concrete example, just our ideas of the legal situation in 2070 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Traul]

And for just about every piece of source code which does more than "hello world". Which would be relevant in the 6th World, if anybody would give a damn about copyrights (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Even if that is still the case in 2070, it only protects the source code, neither reverse engineering nor extracting the author and having him rewrite the program.

As for NDAs... before a corp can sue one of its former citizens for breach of NDA, they have to find who he works for now, and they they found it they would have a much more serious case than breach of NDA. Extracted scientists and their new boss tend to keep a low profile (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

It basically does - recoil is handled as a SA as it is.

...but is it -1 for Perception tests to find the source of a shot?

[Yerameyahu]

Sure, might as well. A pretty minor house rule, if nothing else.

[StealthSigma]

Indeed, you make a very astute observation. I actually considered this after my post, and thought of ways to rationalize it, whether it was due to changes in patent law after corps owned everything or whatever ...which makes me more inclined to ditch the Metal Storm name for whoever decides to pick up the opposition to Yamaha.

1. Patents would definitely be expired barring any change in patent law.
2. Metal Storm is an Australian company (if that matters at all). So if you're looking for a company that would have "inherited" the design specs, look for something out of Australia.

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The Metal Storm concept seems to be closer in line with the YSF pistol's description. Linear stacks of rounds in multiple barrels. The problem with these kinds of weapons becomes firing rate control. There's little chance that anyone but the most heavily reaction enhanced could do anything except fire off the entire stack in one go unless it was hard coded to fire in specific bursts, and not fired by a conventional pull trigger (which the picture shows).

Functionally, it would be a rather simple matter to put a chip in the weapon that accounts for a firing mode selector. If it's set to semi-auto, the chip sends out a signal for one bullet to be fired each time the trigger is pulled and burst fire would trigger three bullets. Full-auto is what runs into the problem you're describing. If anything, I would expect this line of weapons to all come smartlinked and have the ability to trigger firing through the smartlink. That would be the only reasonable way to make the weapon work in full-auto, otherwise it would probably be every bullet firing from the weapon when you do full-auto..... and if we consider that each additional bullet functionally works out to +1 DV that could be.... well disgusting.

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In a dystopian future where corporations make the law, one can assume that these durations have been extended.

I don't think that would happen. It may be dystopic and corps may run everything, but do you think they would extend patent durations that long? Just look at the AAAs alone. Do you think they would really extend patent durations when any of the other eight AAAs could come up with the next great design and lock them out of ever producing it?

I actually could see them eliminating the patent extension and leaving it at about 20 years. Then they hirer shadowrunners to lift the prototypes and designs, shuffle them off to one of their "hidden" labs and then start working on their own designs so that they can pop them out as soon as the patent wears off.

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So now we have a theoretical weapon with its first round exiting the barrel without time to accelerate and without the distance to have much of a rotation imparted on it (if at all). You're loosing a round that is both slow, and unstable. You might be better off having a troll throw bullets, and given how broken physical adepts were, a physad troll might well have a lot more success throwing bullets, lol.

This is simple physics. If Metal Storm has defeated physics, please let me know. I've seen the videos of their handguns years ago and while I've never seen a real world cut-away of them, they all implied having at least a few inches of empty barrel at the end.

From what I've recall of metal storm weapons, they make up for the barrel length by adding more barrels, thus reducing the number of projectiles that are loaded in each barrel. If the weapon is 12 rounds, they'll have 4 barrels of three rounds each and it would be of similar length to modern handguns. However, you also have to consider that each bullet that is fired from the barrel extends the barrel length -more- than the length of the round + propellant since that will cause the propellant of the rounds following it to be compressed.

My personal opinion on Metal Storm has always been that the technology is really cool, but not so useful for personal firearms with the exception of hold outs. I've also felt that Metal Storm grenade launchers are silly unless the grenades are impact detonated and are explosive in nature rather than fragmentation grenades.

[Dumori]

My personal opinion on Metal Storm has always been that the technology is really cool, but not so useful for personal firearms with the exception of hold outs. I've also felt that Metal Storm grenade launchers are silly unless the grenades are impact detonated and are explosive in nature rather than fragmentation grenades.

Metal storm works well for cramming the most rounds into the smallest space. The stacked GL that holds 3 40mm rounds is a pretty good idea you don't lose anything and you gain more fire power. As any time you would be able to load the GL your likely able to load 3 rounds not just one. Plus not having to reload after every shot would give you a distinct advantage over the current system.

Metal storm tech out side secondary weapons and point defence is limited though any large amount of rounds is a bitch to reload. So it only really works fro underbarrel weaponry or compact secondary weapons. They plus is it makes the GL on the pulse rifle from Aliens perfectly workable loading caseless rounds of GL or shotgun in a compact underbarrel system would offer grate utility though some way to tweak the load or possiblely multiple barrels might be needed for it to work perfectly. In SR terms additional "clip" or ammo switch systems.

[Ed_209a]

Full-auto is what runs into the problem you're describing.

The contemporary Metal Storm design is a fully electric gun, meaning no mechanical linkage between trigger and firing action. The trigger is just an electrical switch, I bet you could wire in a doorbell button and it would work nearly as well.

It is a trivial bit of engineering to put logic in the weapon that sends a firing impulse every <unit of time> while the selector switch is on full auto, and the trigger is pulled.

[StealthSigma]

The contemporary Metal Storm design is a fully electric gun, meaning no mechanical linkage between trigger and firing action. The trigger is just an electrical switch, I bet you could wire in a doorbell button and it would work nearly as well.

It is a trivial bit of engineering to put logic in the weapon that sends a firing impulse every <unit of time> while the selector switch is on full auto, and the trigger is pulled.

However, that negates the recoil benefit of Metal Storm. The weapon is recoilless in the sense that the bullets are fired so quickly that the barrel doesn't have time to rise before the last round leaves it. If you throttle full auto to work out to a firing rate not too dissimilar from conventional full out, then you will have the same barrel drift problem. Thus Metal Storm turns into nothing more than a way to load ammunition, albeit one that removed the need for some external magazine. Thus it would only apply a concealment bonus.

[Deadmannumberone]

Uhm... For US, utility patents it was 17 years from time of issue prior to '95, then it became 20 years from time of filing. Design patents only have a 14 year term. There is an extension allowed for a few years to a patent (under the Hatch-Waxman Act) due to delays from FDA approval process.

I have no knowledge from any of my experience or classes about a chance for renew to 40 years.

Yeah. It seems my USPTO scheduling information is a bit outdated. Back in '98 when I checked it out, you could file utility patents for 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years, and could renew once for 20 more years added to the end.

[Ed_209a]

However, that negates the recoil benefit of Metal Storm. The weapon is recoilless in the sense that the bullets are fired so quickly that the barrel doesn't have time to rise before the last round leaves it. If you throttle full auto to work out to a firing rate not too dissimilar from conventional full out, then you will have the same barrel drift problem.

True, but there is no reason you can't have it both ways. When your gun is fully electric, Safe/SA/BF/Superburst/FA are all just programs, and programs are tiny and cheap. The UI would be the hardest part of the design, but Shadowrun Smartgun links and AR would handle that nicely.

I can imagine a real Shadowrun combat MS weapon. I assume that advances in ceramics would make lightweight, disposable barrels practical.

The core is simply a stock with a built-in electronics/SG/sighting package. Need a SMG? Attach a pod of 7, 9mm low-velocity barrels. Need an assault rifle? Attach a pod of 7, 6mm high-velocity barrels. Need a sniper rifle? Attach a pod of 3, 8mm high-velocity barrels. Grenade launcher? A single 25mm barrel. ANything larger, and you would probably need a different, heavier stock with built in pistons to help with the recoil.

The downside, like today, would be the weight and bulk of your ammo.

[Saint Sithney]

However, that negates the recoil benefit of Metal Storm. The weapon is recoilless in the sense that the bullets are fired so quickly that the barrel doesn't have time to rise before the last round leaves it. If you throttle full auto to work out to a firing rate not too dissimilar from conventional full out, then you will have the same barrel drift problem. Thus Metal Storm turns into nothing more than a way to load ammunition, albeit one that removed the need for some external magazine. Thus it would only apply a concealment bonus.

Did you miss the part where it fires 1,000,000 rounds per minute? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (well at least in stacks of 5 per barrel.)

That means that 20 bullets could leave the YSF in .0012 seconds based on current models. Barrel can't rise that fast...

But, again, we run into the problem that MS tech is too next level to mess with. Rolling with two 4P +19p narrow bursts in a pass just isn't going to happen. Also wrist fracture.

[Sengir]

If the weapon is 12 rounds, they'll have 4 barrels of three rounds each and it would be of similar length to modern handguns.

That still makes the barrel significantly shorter for the first round and noticably shorter for the second one. Also, compressing propellant and bullets? What are you planning to load to archieve enough pressure for that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Did you miss the part where it fires 1,000,000 rounds per minute? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (well at least in stacks of 5 per barrel.)

That means that 20 bullets could leave the YSF in .0012 seconds based on current models. Barrel can't rise that fast...

But, again, we run into the problem that MS tech is too next level to mess with. Rolling with two 4P +19p narrow bursts in a pass just isn't going to happen. Also wrist fracture.

No, I didn't miss that. It's the fundamental problem with full-auto and how Metal Storm would not work within the current rules for full auto. Under current rules, a weapon that is in full-auto can fire short bursts, long bursts, full bursts, and suppressive fire. Given that Metal Storm is capable of firing 16,666 rounds a second I think it is quite reasonable to assume that no character (expect an AI) would be capable of preventing a Metal Storm weapon from discharging all of its rounds when pulling the trigger (or pressing the button) in full-auto mode. Thus the only way to achieve a full-auto mode that doesn't discharge all your rounds is to fire rate limit the firmware on the chip to say "when in full-auto mode, discharge x rounds per trigger pull per y unit of time". With a smart gun it would be reasonable to assume that the user could modify or override that setting but you're still locked to it until you change it. So if you have full-auto mode set to 10 rounds (full burst) you're denied short and long bursts in addition to being denied suppressive fire until you change the setting.

It is precisely those problems with full-auto that lead me to believe that Metal Storm is -not- a good technology to use for personal firearms that have a purpose of putting rounds down range unless full-auto mode is rate limited like similar firearms and the ammunition is used because it reduces weight through removal of an external magazine an metal casings. In which case, we're basically talking about using caseless ammunition which is already in the rules and offers no benefits. I even struggle to justify using the Metal Storm firing method on machine guns. I feel the technology has it's uses on burst fire weapons since it, in theory, increase the accuracy of three round bursts by negating most of the muzzle drift from firing, but I just see a huge number of issues that would need to be overcome when using it in full-auto.

I think it's an awesome idea for computer/ai controlled weaponry when it comes to full-auto, but it boils down that human thought and reaction speeds will never be good enough to effectively use full-auto metal storm without some sort of limiter.

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That still makes the barrel significantly shorter for the first round and noticably shorter for the second one. Also, compressing propellant and bullets? What are you planning to load to archieve enough pressure for that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That's how current Metal Storm technology works. Each round consisted of the bullet with a propellant skirt that fits over the head of the next bullet. The propellant isn't solid like the bullet and it uses the force from the previous propellant charge to compress and help form a tighter seal for the ones following it. The additional barrel length gained through compression probably amounts to maybe an additional 2-3mm over the course of the rounds, but it does occur.

[Sengir]

The propellant isn't solid like the bullet

The question is not how "solid" it is, but what the bulk modulus is...and most caseless ammo schematics I've seen so far had the propellant "hull" only barely go over the tip ofthe round, not much space to compress anything there.

and help form a tighter seal for the ones following it.

What do you want to seal in what effectively is a muzzle loader? There is no chamber which can leak gasses.

[Doc Chase]

It prevents the ammo behind from cooking off and firing beyond the burst you wanted, IIRC.

[StealthSigma]

The question is not how "solid" it is, but what the bulk modulus is...and most caseless ammo schematics I've seen so far had the propellant "hull" only barely go over the tip ofthe round, not much space to compress anything there.



What do you want to seal in what effectively is a muzzle loader? There is no chamber which can leak gasses.

You're asking the wrong person. All I know is how the technology works, not whether that is an intended design or a side effect.

[Sengir]

All I know is how the technology works, not whether that is an intended design or a side effect.

You mean "how the technology is supposed to work, according to TV shows which basically hype up whatever a well-paying sponsor claims to produce moar dackka and flashy explosions".

[Doc Chase]

Has anyone else here actually read the wiki on the Metal Storm systems?

There's only one system that has a theoretical rate of fire of over a million rounds a minute, and that's because it's a 36-barrel monstrosity.

[StealthSigma]

You mean "how the technology is supposed to work, according to TV shows which basically hype up whatever a well-paying sponsor claims to produce moar dackka and flashy explosions".

Patents are "moar dakka and flashy explosions".

However this patent should address that if you don't feel like reading through the Metal Storm patents.

1. A projectile for use in a barrel with a plurality of stacked projectiles, including: a chamber containing a propellant charge for the projectile, an exit from the chamber for release of propulsion gases into the barrel when the propellant is ignited to fire the projectile, the exit including a sealing surface, a seal blocking the exit by sealing against the sealing surface of the chamber, wherein the seal is opened by ignition of the propellant within the chamber but is resistant to propulsion gases from other projectiles in the barrel and is forced further into engagement with the sealing surface by pressure from propulsion gases from other projectiles in the barrel, and a retainer engaging the seal into engagement with the sealing surface, wherein the seal is deformable between a closed condition and an open condition by deformation, and wherein the retainer includes a supporting stop for confining the deformation of the seal.

Bolded for emphasis.

So unless I understand pressure and physics incorrectly. If I apply pressure to something it should very well compress, thus reducing the dimension which is having the pressure applied.

Has anyone else here actually read the wiki on the Metal Storm systems?

There's only one system that has a theoretical rate of fire of over a million rounds a minute, and that's because it's a 36-barrel monstrosity.

1,000,000 / 36 = ~463 rounds / second / barrel = ~1389 rounds / barrel / combat turn = ~347 rounds / barrel / IP for a 4 IP character

I still find it dubious that even the most reaction tweaked character could -control- firing in full auto without some sort of limiter.

[Doc Chase]

1,000,000 / 36 = ~463 rounds / second / barrel = ~1389 rounds / barrel / combat turn = ~347 rounds / barrel / IP for a 4 IP character

I still find it dubious that even the most reaction tweaked character could -control- firing in full auto without some sort of limiter.

Considering the 36-barrel gun isn't man portable, I don't think the reaction-twinked character has to deal with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Doc Chase, you *know* how stupid that statement is. This is Shadowrun. Neraph is *at this moment* munchkin-ing up the Fomori Ghoul Mystic Adept required to *make* it man portable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Cybertorso, gyromount for the win?

[Yerameyahu]

Psh. You'll need more twinkery than just that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not a Heavy Weapon, it's a Vehicle Weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Maybe you could use that ridiculous, 'no really, my character is a humanoid vehicle' argument. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

Ah
So Medium Sized Drone is all you need with the basic rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)