Switching the existing magical tradition?, Possible??? Options

[Machiavelli]

I am becoming more and more frustrated with my current magical tradition. I created my mage-character before the possession traditions had been known and now i see in every run how much better some of these aspects would fit. We all know that awakened persons can lose their magic if they don´t follow their tradition, but shouldn´t it also be able to switch the form of magic if you gain another side of view, e.g. through some real life-changing happenings?

[Hagga]

Talk to your GM. I'd rule it was possible, but only if you relearnt Sorcery either completely or picked a reasonably similar tradition and spent some karma to re-align yourself. This is what your character *believes*, and that belief is what causes pissed off humanoid rocks to coming storming through the walls like the wrath of god. There had better be a damn good reason for his change or crisis of faith - perhaps a geas moment.

What is your tradition, and what do you want to change to? Is it only because you want better spirits?

[Machiavelli]

hermetic tradition, and yes, it is basically because i want the new spirits.^^

[Hagga]

Then you'd better find some sort of spiritual awakening. Or wait until he gets a critical fumble, takes a geas test if you use the rules, and then roleplay a crisis of faith and a swift kick in the teeth from whoever the grand poobah of your desired tradition is, like the Qashmallim or whoever. Just discuss it with your gm. Or better, play out until he dies. Then make a new mage.

[Sengir]

SR's approach to traditions basically is "belief makes reality", so if your character has a religious conversion moment why not? Technically I'd handle it like an initiation session, including the 10 Karma cost (hey, nothing is free in life) but without the usual effects of it, just the "deeper insight into the universe" thing.

[Aerospider]

However you handle it, the magician should disengage all his current magical endeavours as almost everything the magician's learned and achieved has been with a specific understanding of magic. At the very least this would mean the dismissal of all spirits (bound and unbound, whether of a type accepted by the new tradition or not) and the magical lodge will need to be replaced completely.

All grades of Initiation would have to go along with the metamagics and Magic limit increases (losing Magic rating if applicable). A generous GM might allow a karma reduction for re-initiating for the lost metamagic techniques.

Foci and spells could probably be kept.

If the character has a mentor spirit then there's a lot of roleplaying ammunition right there: either the mentor will punish the magician for his lack of dedication (though not necessarily prevent the transition) or perhaps the mentor is the one who made the decision and will guide the magician through the process.

Unwired has an echo for TMs to learn the compiling of extra sprite types beyond their given five – perhaps your GM can be convinced (as I could be) to allow magicians to do the same. The two drawbacks are 1) this won't allow for possession spirits and 2) the new spirit type would have to be without a spell category and therefore unable to assist where spell category is relevant.

I agree with Hagga that the magical community would generally look down on someone doing this. At the very least they would cast suspicion on his commitment and magical competency.

[Mooncrow]

It might be easier to convince your GM to allow your character's twin brother, who has always followed a possession tradition, to suddenly show up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Traditions are a big deal and switching would basically mean re-writing everything your character knows about magic. I could be done, but the cost should be pretty darn high. I think Aerospider summed up the potential costs pretty well.

[Shinobi Killfist]

There is no way too officially do it. The best you can hope for it just talking with the GM, I know many GMs who allow respecs when the player is unhappy with there character.

[Neraph]

Ouch. Nerf-bat hard much people?

I think a fair compromise would be this: You have to complete a Metaplanar Quest tied to the new tradition without the aid of your Magic at all. No spells, no conjuring, no spirits under your explicit control - just you and your non-Magic-linked skills. Arcana, Magical Theory, Negotiations, Etiquette, Assensing, Astral Combat... Basically no spells.

After that you'd be able to change tradition and keep all spells, foci, Initiations, and similar things. I'd say you lose your spirits and you have to change your Magical Lodge (if you own one), but that's about all.

EDIT: Think of it like an Atonement spell from 3.5.

[TommyTwoToes]

Ouch. Nerf-bat hard much people?

I think a fair compromise would be this: You have to complete a Metaplanar Quest tied to the new tradition without the aid of your Magic at all. No spells, no conjuring, no spirits under your explicit control - just you and your non-Magic-linked skills. Arcana, Magical Theory, Negotiations, Etiquette, Assensing, Astral Combat... Basically no spells.

I think the costs and penalties are too light. A magician changing his tradition is about as likely as a preist changing religions. The tradition that each mage follows is fundamental to their view of how the universe works. This should be a huge event in the character's development.

[Neraph]

A magician changing his tradition is about as likely as a preist changing religions.

Without getting into theological debates too deep, this actually occurs more frequently than people would think.

Of course it's a huge event: that's why he has to do a difficult task without any use of his magic whatsoever.

[TommyTwoToes]

Without getting into theological debates too deep, this actually occurs more frequently than people would think.

Of course it's a huge event: that's why he has to do a difficult task without any use of his magic whatsoever.

I agree that keeping out of the theological end of the pool is the right way to go, however I don't think that preists, ministers, Imams, or rabbis change religions often at all. I am not talking about moving from a sect that thinks you need to wear red hats on Tuesdays vs dark orange hats on Tuesdays, I mean a complete break with their current beleifs and taking up a new route.

I don't see people who are wholely committed to a beleife system the way religious leaders tend to be changing their outlook (about that beleif system) in anything but the smallest details.

I know that scientists run into the same thing with paradigm changes.

[Neraph]

I agree that keeping out of the theological end of the pool is the right way to go, however I don't think that preists, ministers, Imams, or rabbis change religions often at all. I am not talking about moving from a sect that thinks you need to wear red hats on Tuesdays vs dark orange hats on Tuesdays, I mean a complete break with their current beleifs and taking up a new route.

I don't see people who are wholely committed to a beleife system the way religious leaders tend to be changing their outlook (about that beleif system) in anything but the smallest details.

I know that scientists run into the same thing with paradigm changes.

Again, I don't think this is the proper forum for this, but it does in fact happen fairly frequently. Plenty plenty of people convert their beliefs, and many of them are teachers themselves - whether rabbi, pastor, preacher, imam, or another name, teacher they all are.

In any event, there are no recorded Shadowrun mages changing traditions. Although the conceptual precedence is there. Toxic and Blood mages certainly seem to devolve into those states, although one can argue that Blood magic is simply a template placed onto a magical belief system. Toxic magic, however, definately has its own spirits to summon and its own listed sample Tradition.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Again, I don't think this is the proper forum for this, but it does in fact happen fairly frequently. Plenty plenty of people convert their beliefs, and many of them are teachers themselves - whether rabbi, pastor, preacher, imam, or another name, teacher they all are.

In any event, there are no recorded Shadowrun mages changing traditions. Although the conceptual precedence is there. Toxic and Blood mages certainly seem to devolve into those states, although one can argue that Blood magic is simply a template placed onto a magical belief system. Toxic magic, however, definately has its own spirits to summon and its own listed sample Tradition.

Traditionally Toxics were Shaman's who went down a dark path so it was a template. I think in 3e they decided it was unfair that shamans got a bad rap and had mages pick it up as well.(lame IMO, mages had there own issues). I think in 4e it is supposed to be the same thing but since it is unavailable to players they just stat it out a bit differently. And besides the different spirits, really are just toxic versions of what they could summon before they went toxic.

As for the main topic. You can't change it by the rules.

If your GM allows it he can do whatever he wants to allow it. Whatever the cost if any should not be more than the cost of just bringing in a new character from scratch. For example if you can bring in a new character and he has the same karma as the rest of the team for balance reasons why put any cost at all on this beyond fluff. If a new character being brought in starts off from scratch I can see a rationalization for some cost, but really do you as a GM want the players playing characters they want to or characters they are not happy with. There are obviously limits to what you should allow but this seems more like a re-skin than anything else with no real effect. If someone tells me they wish tey had made there character a native american now that they think about it and they would have used this background instead I don't ant to be a pain in the ass over it, fine we retconned things move on. Also retconning in changes due to new books seems reasonable to me as well.

[Xahn Borealis]

I don't think it would be easy, whether you allowed it or not. Perhaps afterwards, your magician has some negative quality, such as aspected which can be paid off normally, to represent the effort it takes to accept that magic works differently now.

[CanRay]

You could always go toxic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Machiavelli]

My GM wouldn´t let me. I already thought about learning blood-magic but i got a big NO from my master.^^

[CanRay]

Have you tried Insect Spirits? I hear they're all the rage in Chicago. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Machiavelli]

I will have a try.^^ Everything is better than the spirits i can summon at the moment.^^

[Hagga]

My GM wouldn´t let me. I already thought about learning blood-magic but i got a big NO from my master.^^

Learning blood magic puts a big 1 million nuyen price on your head, and the team would almost certainly collect. Maybe even by telling you they're taking you to Saeder-Krupp Disneyland, putting you in the car with your little suitcase and then driving through the front door of the Draco Foundation before your childish glee falls flat and you realise you are not going to Disney Land, but a realm of test tubes and electrodes without any rides.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I will have a try.^^ Everything is better than the spirits I can summon at the moment.^^

Why? :wpbble:

[Fringe]

Again, I don't think this is the proper forum for this, but it does in fact happen fairly frequently. Plenty plenty of people convert their beliefs, and many of them are teachers themselves - whether rabbi, pastor, preacher, imam, or another name, teacher they all are.

In any event, there are no recorded Shadowrun mages changing traditions. Although the conceptual precedence is there. Toxic and Blood mages certainly seem to devolve into those states, although one can argue that Blood magic is simply a template placed onto a magical belief system. Toxic magic, however, definately has its own spirits to summon and its own listed sample Tradition.

My first theology professor warned us on the first day of class that each of us would lose our faith at some point in the process. Most find their way back, but a few do not...those would be the people who change denominations or even belief systems. You're not really challenging your beliefs if there's no chance you're wrong.

I can certainly testify to a perception of a lack of commitment, though. Not in the magical community, of course, but the ecclesial community is startlingly less forgiving than one might expect.

Although perhaps I've led us too far down the side track... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

I don't think it would be easy, whether you allowed it or not. Perhaps afterwards, your magician has some negative quality, such as aspected which can be paid off normally, to represent the effort it takes to accept that magic works differently now.

This is actually one of the most reasonable ideas I've seen on this thread. Possibly changing your Tradition and getting a Geas which you'd have to buy off normally, like the description of a mage with a trial of faith or whatever in Street Magic.

[Xahn Borealis]

This is actually one of the most reasonable ideas I've seen on this thread. Possibly changing your Tradition and getting a Geas which you'd have to buy off normally, like the description of a mage with a trial of faith or whatever in Street Magic.

Exactly. From what I've read, a tradition is your character's way of saying, "Magic happens like this." Any change in tradition would have to somehow acknowledge the fact that another tradition works just as well. Changing from Hermetic to Voodoo, for example, would leave the magician with the understanding that magic is a universal energy, and also a power that comes exclusively from les invisibles, who has handpicked the magician. So are you summoning loa or elementals?

What this means for you, is that your GM will ultimately have to decide, but don't expect it to be an easy, "Now I can deliver a different flavour of kick ass." What it will mean for your character is, "Now I live in a different universe. The old one doesn't exist."

[LurkerOutThere]

Personally of all the reasons to want to change. "I like the spirits in the new splat better." Has about the least ring to it thematicly.


I will be the first to admit that the core book spirits are a little behind the times compared to Guidance, Guardian, and the pur ghouda that is task, but that's something to talk about optional powers with your GM. Otherwise it sounds like you just want your mage to take a level of vodoo to go with his three ranks of warrior.