Missing types of bioware and geneware, What is necessary to make cyberware wholly obsolete ? Options

[Wanderer]

Let's assume that slight technological improvements allow Cat's Eyes and Troll's Eyes to be used together. Let's also assume that all Availability limits on 'ware are removed. What as yet undeveloped items of bioware/geneware would be necessary to substitute cyberware at all those tasks which can be conceivably done by sufficiently advanced bioware/geneware, and hence make cyberware wholly obsolete, or at least "the poor person's enhancement" ?

[sabs]

Move by Wire
Encephalon II
Attention CoProcessor
Simsense accelerator
Hot Sim Module
Nanohive
Skillwire


just off the top of my head (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Let's assume that slight technological improvements allow Cat's Eyes and Troll's Eyes to be used together. Let's also assume that all Availability limits on 'ware are removed. What as yet undeveloped items of bioware/geneware would be necessary to substitute cyberware at all those tasks which can be conceivably done by sufficiently advanced bioware/geneware, and hence make cyberware wholly obsolete, or at least "the poor person's enhancement" ?

Reaction enhancers + Wired Reflexes as the big thing that comes to mind.

However, there are certain things that you just couldn't conceivably do with bioware and it would revolve around cyberware like skillwires.

[Ascalaphus]

- Olfactory sensor in a cyberlimb (for toxic athmospheres)
- Obscene armor increases from cyberlimbs
- Implant taser-like weapons (arguably as animal gene transplant)
- All the nice nanites
- Simrig
- Eye/ear recording unit
- Implant commlink, datajack
- Cranial Bomb
- Math SPU
- Radar sensor
- Eye laser
- Ocular drone
- Smartlink
- Cybersafety
- Ruthenium dermal sheath
- Data filter

[Mongoose]

A lot of the eyeware and earware can be duplicated with contacts and earbuds. Same thing with stuff that's basically gear stuck in a cyberlimb / hole cut in your body (implant comlink, air tank, gun, etc), so I'd discount those.
The main ones that no other tech can duplicate are the ones that involve machine / mind interfacing that a simple trode set can't handle, like Control Rigs, "hard" Simsense effects (accelrator / skillwires), or (for critters) the Orietnation Goad. There's also stuff where biotech that aims for the same benefits will probably never do as good a job at the top end (MBW, reaction enhancers). And then there's stuff where getting rid of flesh is the POINT- the CCU being the logical endpoint of this sort of tech, and obviously not do-able via biotech.

Other than that, I think the distinction is pretty artificial. Really, there's no good reason I can see that your body should care which is which. T
What really matters (discounting magical / auric theories) is the immunological and inflamitory response to the implanted material and the implantation procedure. There are things that Cyber or Bio does better / more cost effectively, of course, and probably always will be.
IMO, there's no reason cyber should be "the poor mans alternative", once you get nanite manufacturing that blurs the line between biological and inorganic to a mere technicality. That day probably hasn't come in shadowrun, and such designs would be expensive to develop, but cheaper as knowledge and computing power advance. And obvious example is "muscle replacement" vs "muscle toner / augmentation". With some low cost bio-mimetic nano-materials development, there's no reason the gulf between the two should be so huge.
The main thing Biotech has going for it is that Biotech is essentially a (fairly) mature nanotech, in that it uses molecular programing (DNA) to control material assembly in a bio-compatible medium. Once nanoptech production and design costs fall to the same level, cybertech will push back in a bog way (or the difference between the two will simply vanish). Of course, that's also about the point where you can develop synthetic non-organic life / "grey goo", so likely kicks off a singularity...

[Traul]

Attention CoProcessor

This one exists (Reception Enhancer), but it must be one of the few biowares that cost more Essence than the cyber equivalent.

[Wanderer]

Other than that, I think the distinction is pretty artificial. Really, there's no good reason I can see that your body should care which is which. T
What really matters (discounting magical / auric theories) is the immunological and inflamitory response to the implanted material and the implantation procedure. There are things that Cyber or Bio does better / more cost effectively, of course, and probably always will be.
IMO, there's no reason cyber should be "the poor mans alternative", once you get nanite manufacturing that blurs the line between biological and inorganic to a mere technicality. That day probably hasn't come in shadowrun, and such designs would be expensive to develop, but cheaper as knowledge and computing power advance. And obvious example is "muscle replacement" vs "muscle toner / augmentation". With some low cost bio-mimetic nano-materials development, there's no reason the gulf between the two should be so huge.
The main thing Biotech has going for it is that Biotech is essentially a (fairly) mature nanotech, in that it uses molecular programing (DNA) to control material assembly in a bio-compatible medium. Once nanoptech production and design costs fall to the same level, cybertech will push back in a bog way (or the difference between the two will simply vanish). Of course, that's also about the point where you can develop synthetic non-organic life / "grey goo", so likely kicks off a singularity...

This point has much merit. However, I would just point that as your self acknowledge, nanoware for the purposes of this discussion is basically the same category of low-invasive, low-maintainance enhancement as bio/geneware and the distinction is bound to get blurry. No, what is mostly meant by cyberware in this context is old-school chrome and wires cybernetic enhancements. As it concerns nanoware, purely biological enhancements still have some important advantages, besides the magical/auric aspects, since they are wholly zero-maintainance and they come with natural self-repair capability, although it is true that in the long term, inorganic nanoware may develop those advantages, too.

A lot of the eyeware and earware can be duplicated with contacts and earbuds.

Contacts and earbuds can be lost or stolen, however. In order to lose bioware, complex surgery is needed, and removeing geneware is even more difficult. They can't really be compared this way.

[sabs]

I wear glasses eeryday of my life.
Yes they can be lost, but it's surprisingly rare (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

My biggest problem with glasses is finding them when I leave them a couple inches away from where I normally put them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Mäx]

This one exists (Reception Enhancer), but it must be one of the few biowares that cost more Essence than the cyber equivalent.

Theyr also pretty much only pieces of bio/cyber that do the same think and stack with each other.

[Manunancy]

In my opinion, golld ole chrome will remain ahead of biwoare in two areas :
* exotic senses. Sure you may possibly design something organic able to sniff magnetic anomalies, provide a radar or the like, but this sort of specialized sensors is a place where chrome wil remain better. Even if bioware improves and evolves, chrome will improve too.
* just plain and brutal strength/resilience jobs. Metals and composites can handle level of stress far above organic materials.

[KCKitsune]

I wear glasses eeryday of my life.
Yes they can be lost, but it's surprisingly rare (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tell me this, sabs: If you could get cybereyes and they were not too expensive ($1000 or less), would you do it?

My answer to the above question: in a fragging heartbeat!

[Saint Sithney]

Theyr also pretty much only pieces of bio/cyber that do the same think and stack with each other.

So, you mean that it's not just poorly written/conceived, it's exceptionally poorly written/conceived? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Also, where's the cyberweapon love?
Bone claws? puh-leeze. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

Satyr legs can replace raptor cyber legs but that is surge and not bioware. Some of the other surge powers could be made into bioware. It brings up game balance issues but all the same many of them could reasonably be made into bioware.

[StealthSigma]

This one exists (Reception Enhancer), but it must be one of the few biowares that cost more Essence than the cyber equivalent.

Hmm. 0.3 essence and 9,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for +3 Perception or 0.6 essence at 60,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for +3 Perception.

But oh wait! My essence loss from cyberware is lower than bioware, so that means it's only a 0.15 essence cost for the Attention Co-Processer.

[KCKitsune]

I believe the balancing point of Reception Enhancer is that a mage can get one installed and it will work in astral space because it is bioware (just like a Cerebral Booster helps out in in Astral)

[Fatum]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned cyberlimbs, minding that they are awesome for non-primary combatant characters as all hell.

[TommyTwoToes]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned cyberlimbs, minding that they are awesome for non-primary combatant characters as all hell.

Not only that, but also "the othercyberlimb" the penile implant.....however it is somewhat more gross as bioware than as cyber, I think... now I am not sure.

I guess it depends on where they get the genes from.

[Wanderer]

So, you mean that it's not just poorly written/conceived, it's exceptionally poorly written/conceived? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Also, where's the cyberweapon love?
Bone claws? puh-leeze. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Even if it does not carry the same cool factor as the Wolverine stuff, Reinforced Bone bioware has the same combat effects as cyberspurs, much less legality issues, and is much less noticeable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Fatum]

I guess it depends on where they get the genes from.

Well, there are rules for replacement cloned organs in Aug. So I imagine could be your own easily.
Also, nope, that was not the... uh... limb I was talking about.
Just remember how much awesome stuff you can easily fit in a single cyberarm, and how many BPs that saves.

[Traul]

Even if it does not carry the same cool factor as the Wolverine stuff, Reinforced Bone bioware has the same combat effects as cyberspurs, much less legality issues, and is much less noticeable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

That, and cyberweapons are lame anyway. Most areas that will ask you to check your weapons will also have a cyberware scanner. This is a big problem of SR4: apart from the plain stat boosts that cannot be obtained otherwise, there is little to no interest in using implants over external gear, and you are further hit Essence cost, higher price tag and legal issues.

This goes for weapons, sensors, commlink,... It is a pity that they lost the whole human/machine interface flavor.

[StealthSigma]

Not only that, but also "the othercyberlimb" the penile implant.....however it is somewhat more gross as bioware than as cyber, I think... now I am not sure.

I guess it depends on where they get the genes from.

Ron Jeremy....

[Wanderer]

This goes for weapons, sensors, commlink,... It is a pity that they lost the whole human/machine interface flavor.

So what ? Chrome is so passe, the product of obsolete '70s-'80s futurism, and don't get me started on how much wired cyberspace access looks lame in the wireless age. Bio and nano are the true wave of the future, not holes drilled in one's skull. I cheer for the obsolescence of chrome.

[Wanderer]

Oops sorry, double post.

[Traul]

So what ? Chrome is so passe, the product of obsolete '70s-'80s futurism, and don't get me started on how much wired cyberspace access looks lame in the wireless age. Bio and nano are the true wave of the future, not holes drilled in one's skull. I cheer for the obsolescence of chrome.

But chrome is not being overshadowed by bio and nano. It is being overshadowed by stuff you put in your pockets. And so is plenty of bioware.