Missing types of bioware and geneware, What is necessary to make cyberware wholly obsolete ? Options

[Saint Sithney]

That, and cyberweapons are lame anyway. Most areas that will ask you to check your weapons will also have a cyberware scanner. This is a big problem of SR4:

A varied selection of Wifi Inhibiting Paint and a Disguise check turns finding capacity items in a cyberlimb into a threshold test. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Traul]

So the scanner will go off from detecting the wifi negating paint instead of the spurs. Is that any better?

[Fatum]

Actually, we're coming dangerously close to the dreaded "what is cyberpunk" debate here.
And frankly, I just don't believe cyberpunk feels right without cyberware. It's a matter of personal preference, of course, but I'd say - you want more or less scientifically sound transhumanist future - you go play Eclipse Phase, not Shadowrun.

[Simon Kerimov]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned cyberlimbs, minding that they are awesome for non-primary combatant characters as all hell.

Symbiots. I would like to replace my left arm with a foul-tempered electrical eel with five mouths, three types of vicious poison, and a tendency to leave eggs in it's victims. Alternately, I can go ahead and borrow a concept from Vampire Hunter D and replace my hand with a mouth that looks out for me and tells me I should drink more blood.

[Simon Kerimov]

Actually, we're coming dangerously close to the dreaded "what is cyberpunk" debate here.
And frankly, I just don't believe cyberpunk feels right without cyberware. It's a matter of personal preference, of course, but I'd say - you want more or less scientifically sound transhumanist future - you go play Eclipse Phase, not Shadowrun.

Done.

[CanRay]

What will make Cybeware obsolete?

The cost coming down, the availability coming up, and all the punks on the street with second-hand ware. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fatum]

Done.

Tried that, too, actually. But breaking the system is ridiculously easy, and the rulebook is horrible. So here I am GMing SR again.
And my NPCs have cyber.

Oh, and what comes to bio limb replacements. Yeah, those can be cool, ranging from the extreme cases you've described to just genetweaked appendages, but I'm pretty sure there'd be a number of people who would not like to have their arm replaced with a six-mouthed eel. Who looks at them at night.

[Simon Kerimov]

Tried that, too, actually. But breaking the system is ridiculously easy, and the rulebook is horrible. So here I am GMing SR again.
And my NPCs have cyber.

Breaking the system is easy? That's like saying breaking Exalted is easy. It is, but it doesn't matter, because you are always going to be small fish.

What didn't you like about the rulebook? I admit to not having read it all the way through yet, just grabbing sections as I need them.

[Kingboy]

If you could get cybereyes and they were not too expensive ($1000 or less), would you do it?

My answer to the above question: in a fragging heartbeat!

My answer? Hell no...not if you paid me. Not until cameras/visual receptors can perfectly emulate the colour range of the human eye—not surpass mind you, or have "more but different", but match exactly—in all lighting conditions. It's a little explored subject in cyberpunk media that looking at the world though cameras 24/7 would be fundamentally different than using our stock equipment.

Sure, having additional sensor abilities like thermo and such is swell and all, but only when I want/need it. The rest of the time I'd want to be as sure as possible I was seeing the "real" world as it is, as much as such a thing is ever possible for a human being (and discounting all GiTSesque cyberware hacking).

[Fatum]

Uh, yeah, it's not like you can take on TITANs' toys or anything. But otherwise it's just sad what kind of "optimization" you can do - it's not even char op, since it only gives benefits and no penalties. Just sad.

I didn't like the number of typos and blatant errors in it. I posted a full list on the related forum back when the rulebook was still fresh - I remember it had charging listed as a modifier for ranged combat, several different rule interpretations for... what was it, passengers getting damage when a vehicle crushes?.. on the same page, and so on. Dozens of things like these.
Of course it's not like it really matters, but seriously, what kind of self-respecting publisher prints something like that (actually, the same question stands for 6WA, but that one is even worse).
Oh, and it had a bunch of poorly worded or just unclear rules, too.

By the by, even EP still has cyber - and the synth morphs are a breeze to optimize.

[Fatum]

It's a little explored subject in cyberpunk media that looking at the world though cameras 24/7 would be fundamentally different than using our stock equipment.

*ahem* Essence costs *ahem*

[Wanderer]

Actually, we're coming dangerously close to the dreaded "what is cyberpunk" debate here.
And frankly, I just don't believe cyberpunk feels right without cyberware. It's a matter of personal preference, of course, but I'd say - you want more or less scientifically sound transhumanist future - you go play Eclipse Phase, not Shadowrun.

Well, IMO it is not a matter of being strict hard sci-fi, which I agree is contrary to the genre, but that sci-fi ought to evolve according to what the current level of technological and sociological futuristic speculation tells is plausible. In this sense, I have to deem that sticking to a 70s-80s vision of transhumanism and (post-)cyberpunk focused on wires and cybernetics is as lame and contradictory to the purpose of the exercise as it is for 30s-40s space opera where humanity colonizes the galaxy but social rules remain mired in mirroring pre-WWII America. According to how sci-fi mirrors scientific advancement, some technologies are the "wave of the future" for a while, then fall by the wayside. In the 30s-40s its was chemistry, in the 50s-60s nuclear physics, in the 70s-80s cybernetics, since the 90s its has been genetic engineering, nanotechnology, and quantum physics. IMO, (post-)cyberpunk and transhumanism do not need a focus on cybernetics to be authentic any more than space opera needs to have societies that are a cheap Roman Empire knockoff mixed with 1950s America. Of course, YMMV.

[Simon Kerimov]

Uh, yeah, it's not like you can take on TITANs' toys or anything. But otherwise it's just sad what kind of "optimization" you can do - it's not even char op, since it only gives benefits and no penalties. Just sad.

I didn't like the number of typos and blatant errors in it. I posted a full list on the related forum back when the rulebook was still fresh - I remember it had charging listed as a modifier for ranged combat, several different rule interpretations for... what was it, passengers getting damage when a vehicle crushes?.. on the same page, and so on. Dozens of things like these.
Of course it's not like it really matters, but seriously, what kind of self-respecting publisher prints something like that (actually, the same question stands for 6WA, but that one is even worse).
Oh, and it had a bunch of poorly worded or just unclear rules, too.

By the by, even EP still has cyber - and the synth morphs are a breeze to optimize.

I agree that if you are treating Eclipse Phase like Shadowrun, it seems easy to break and becomes absurd. You can purchase a Reaper morph at character gen, for example, and you have access to lots of mean and vicious toys. But even with this optimization, how do you kill someone in Eclipse Phase?

[Fatum]

The thing is, Shadowrun's spirit is supposed to be cyberpunk, pure and simple, not postcyberpunk and transhumanism.
That's what, again, EP is for.

But even with this optimization, how do you kill someone in Eclipse Phase?

You shoot them until they die. Then rip the mem-recording unit out. Repeat as necessary, until there's nobody willing to resurrect the failure any more.

[Kingboy]

*ahem* Essence costs *ahem*

Mhe...that's just a game balance mechanic that makes more sense (especially given the magical hoobajoo at SR's core) than the old CP2020 cyberpsychosis, yet really does less to investigate the repercussions of making yourself more machine than man.

[Fatum]

Yet it's described IC as feeling those subtle differences, and it can lead to cyberpsychosis once your Essence is low enough.
Saying it's purely mechanical is like saying having a high Strength or Intellect stat is purely mechanical - sure, it has it's effect, but unless you're rollplaying, it also affects your characters outfit and behavior and that.

[Simon Kerimov]

You shoot them until they die. Then rip the mem-recording unit out. Repeat as necessary, until there's nobody willing to resurrect the failure any more.

This doesn't help against the rich bastard who hides a resleeving facility on the Oort cloud and uses a QE transmission with their cortical stack when they die. Violence does not solve every problem in Eclipse Phase, and watching Shadowrun players not get that was interesting at Gen Con.

[Fatum]

Why yes it does. If it doesn't, you're just not applying enough.

[Wanderer]

The thing is, Shadowrun's spirit is supposed to be cyberpunk, pure and simple, not postcyberpunk and transhumanism.

In your opinion, does space opera need to picture women as pre-sexual revolution, in order to be authentic ? That's how the original period source material depicted them after all. Cyberpunk is a specific sociological lens applied to near-future sci-fi, not a specific brand of futuristic technology that only made sense acording to '70s-'80s ideas of the future, which later RL developments already made largely obsolete.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm not really averse to a bit of transhumanism in my Shadowrun, but I'm not entirely at ease with SR4's burgeoning middle class civil society. It seems suddenly there are loads of people to buy mid-range luxury items!

[Kraegor]

Move by Wire - REPLACEMENT: Autonomous Nervous System Balancer

By replicating the nervous system and increasing the amount of nerve endings inside a person, this gives enhanced reflexes and muscle memory to the subject. Using mixtures of growth hormones and nerve bundles taken from Type-O subjects the replacement and addition of nerve bundled tissue causes the reaction times and muscle memory of the subject to be enhanced.

Encephalon II - REPLACEMENT: Cerebellum Enduction

By removing part of the subjects brain and replacing it with extra tissue from another subjects brain tissue, this expands the mind and increases IQ and math abilities beyond the norm.

Attention CoProcessor - REPLACEMENT: Hypothalamus Enhancement

By grafting on pieces of Hypothalamus tissue onto the brain stem, this allows the subject to stay alert and increase attention to detail.

Simsense accelerator - REPLACEMENT: Bio-Nueral Induction

By placing thin tissue from Jellyfish membrane under the skull increases the bio-electrical flow to the brain from trodes or any external source that sends electrical impulses to the brain.

Hot Sim Module - REPLACEMENT: Nueral Synthetic Receiver

By using DNA sequencing from certain types of animals that are extra receptive to magnetic and electrical impulses (sharks), scientists have managed to make a tissue pocket that can accept data and binary code and have them converted into electrical impulses that the brain stem can translate.

Nanohive - REPLACEMENT: Bacterial Generator

This cluster of cells located in the body can create and regenerate bacteria inside the body to replicate said bacteria on a DNA specific coded sequence. (This enables the cluster to create bacteria, white blood cells, red blood cells, etc for uses just as other Nano technology)

Skillwire - REPLACEMENT: Autonomous Nervous System Muscle Memory

Layers of thin muscle and nerve bundles are removed from subjects that are DNA hardcoded for certain tasks and electronically stimulated for hundreds of man hours to perform certain tasks. This muscle fiber and tissue are then removed and placed in the recepient, giving them bonuses to muscle memory for certain tasks.


There you go. Any more?

As you can see, almost any cyberware can be replaced with bioware that you can make up for your game.

Weapons? No problem:

Cyber Spurs - Internal Sheathing Bone Grafting Weapons
Projectiles - All types of acid spray, mucus shooting, web slinging, even hard pellets can be ejected from the body.

Now, of course, none of these would actually replace the devestating power of a shotgun as a cyberlimb, but really.. there are some limits.

[Saint Sithney]

So the scanner will go off from detecting the wifi negating paint instead of the spurs. Is that any better?

All depends on your interpretation.

If you assume that it's an automated system which compares its scans to known forms, then using Disguise, you can prevent it from seeing those forms.
Multiple levels of inhibition will block the signals in differing amounts, resulting in 3D forms and shapes which disguise your forbidden gear as unrecognized internal structures.

It's a reasonable and workable way to keep forbidden cyber in your game, a creative solution to what you've deemed a problem.
Why shoot it down? ¯\(°_o)/¯

[Fatum]

In your opinion, does space opera need to picture women as pre-sexual revolution, in order to be authentic ? That's how the original period source material depicted them after all.

Yes.

Also, minding how our society is itself creeping towards cyberpunk, I fail to see how the idea is "obsolete".

[Simon Kerimov]

Nanohive - REPLACEMENT: Bacterial Generator

This cluster of cells located in the body can create and regenerate bacteria inside the body to replicate said bacteria on a DNA specific coded sequence. (This enables the cluster to create bacteria, white blood cells, red blood cells, etc for uses just as other Nano technology)

And this is why soft nanites should be considered bioware.

[KarmaInferno]

The thing is, Shadowrun's spirit is supposed to be cyberpunk, pure and simple, not postcyberpunk and transhumanism.
That's what, again, EP is for.


You shoot them until they die. Then rip the mem-recording unit out. Repeat as necessary, until there's nobody willing to resurrect the failure any more.

Nah, you'd never know if they had a backup, somewhere, and you'd be chasing them all over creation.

Infect their digital persona with a viral stealth bomb. Make sure they survive. Eventually, they'll go to update their backups. Wait a year or two to make sure the target gets around to updating all their backups. Then blow the viral bomb. Wipe their digital persona from existence, all at once, everywhere. Upload hyperstealth viral packages into as many systems as you can manage that all seek to delete the target persona in case you missed a copy somewhere.



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-karma