Expanded Dragonspeech, Innate spell question? Options

[naga-nuyen]

Good day runners, I need a little help figuring this one out.

Question: In running wild it says on page: 82 that drake character (with DM permission) may take a Mystic detection spell as a innate spell.

First part is simple, but now this is where i get confused...you need spellcasting to get an innate spell (need to learn the innate spell like you would a normal spell) but you cannot get spellcasting unless you are a Mystic Adept or magician. Yet if you are either of those why would you get an innate spell when you can just learn it?

Is there a way for a normal Adept magic 6 drake to get innate spells?

Also note: Got the Dragon tutor covered, Drake is a member of the Benandanti XXV order based out of Seattle (at UW) taking advanced magic theory/ Foci course work and running the shadows (also looking for anything of interest to order and passing information or objects along).

Thanks for your time, and have a good day/night!

[Draco18s]

Spellcasting 0 + Magic 6 = a non-zero number.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[naga-nuyen]

Thank you Draco18s, but i must be dense.....I understand that 0+6=6 for dice pool, yet this does not help the player learn the innate spell, you cannot default on spellcasting, so either i am stuck on stupid and not seeing something. Or adept/ mundane drakes are not supposed to take innate spells.

Quick note, a player can learn spellcasting as a knowledge skill, if the player did this, would that than give him the knowledge to learn the spell...but add no dice to the actual casting of the spell?

[Draco18s]

Not having RW I would say that they can learn the spell (because of the metamagic) regardless of what their spellcasting skill is. I wouldn't even induce the defaulting penalty (eg. full magic as dice pool). Because otherwise its a shitty metamagic.

[Johnny B. Good]

What about if said magic was all allocated towards adept powers?

[naga-nuyen]

yes, that is the case...it is were i am having problems with it. Maybe i am not stating the problem clearly.

[Mooncrow]

Hrm, I suppose you could treat it as a spell knack? Give it a phantom point of magic and have it allow you to learn spellcasting as an active skill.

[naga-nuyen]

Taking the spell knack quality is a great option for the non adept, thank you.

But is there any other way of gaining the spellcasting skill needed to learn a spell while playing an adept? Once again I am stuck on stupid, and I hope I am not upsetting anyone with the continued questions?

I just need to make this work with out in house ruling; I try to avoid any changes to RAW if possible.

For the moment I am thinking of allowing the player to learn spellcasting as a Knowledge skill (Which is an option in SR4a), than he will have the needed skill to learn the spell, and rely on magic of 6 for any dice pool.

One problem that I see now with this is what does it mean to have the magic tied to adept powers....does that mean that he may not use that to channel an innate spell?

[Johnny B. Good]

It looks to me as if most of this is left up to GM interpretation. The rules aren't too clear on this at all. See what he thinks, as the GM is usually the be-all, end-all in character creation.

[naga-nuyen]

LOL i am the GM, i am running my first adventure in SR4a, in fact i have not played this system sense about 94-95, mostly playing earthdawn back then. I am a old time gamer and allow the players allot of freedom within the rules, and if the players want to develop a better background than i have them come over for a day or so and build it up. We role play certain areas of his life, mostly leaving dice out of it. I have found that this provides players with a complete picture of the guy, and a invested interest in keeping them alive. At the same time i build up about 3-5 plot lines for each player and weave them into my larger plot lines......I always keep multiple stories going, and not one player get to dominate the story, each has a unique path.

My problem comes with a anal retentive background, i spent 8 years in the Army and was very successful there....only leaving due to injuries. Now i want to keep the thing inside RAW because if one player wants to go and play at tom dick and harries adventure with his well developed character than i want to provide that. I guess I feel I owe it to my players, they are giving me hours of their lives...away from family and friends, I want to provide the best experience.

Again thanks for your time with my dribble, take care and have a sweet day!

[Draco18s]

Hrm, I suppose you could treat it as a spell knack? Give it a phantom point of magic and have it allow you to learn spellcasting as an active skill.

Drakes have magic already (as do adepts). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It's the "not having Spellcasting the skill" that's the issue.

[Mooncrow]

Drakes have magic already (as do adepts). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It's the "not having Spellcasting the skill" that's the issue.

He's already using that point of magic up as an adept. And yes, that's exactly what knack allows - you can learn spellcasting (and banishing/counterspelling too) for that single spell. That's why it seems to be the closest RAW to look at for potential rules on this.

[naga-nuyen]

Yep, it is very close. Yet only mundane can take the quality. It really looks like Drakes can do this, I just can't figure out how it is done mechanically?
First in runner's companion page: 76 says dragon or drake with dragon speech can teach another drake initiate this ability as a metamagic.

K, now we have dragonspeech. Lets look at the Innate spell: page 82 in running wild under expanded Dragonspeech says

At the gamemaster’s discretion, any drake character with the Dragonspeech power may also learn any Detection spell with the psychic descriptor as an Innate Spell for 5 Karma each. The character must be instructed by a dragon or other dracoform with the Dragonspeech power and the appropriate Innate Spell, and this uses the same mechanics as learning a spell (Learning Spells, p. 182, SR4A).

So now the problem comes from not having spellcasting skill. To get the skill the PC must be A) magician or mystic adept B) take it as a knowledge skill.

Now i am fine with the player having limited dice pool for the spell, so the million dollar question is.....Does the spell casting skill taken as a knowledge skill allow you to learn a spell, than his ability as a Dracoform/drake allows him to cast the spell using dragonspeech?

[Draco18s]

It says "any drake" therefore even adepts and not-any-'mage'-drakes can learn it as well. Which seems to me that it'd be "like" Spell Knack.

[Deadmannumberone]

The term "GM discretion" means that it is up to the GM to decide to allow it or not, and how to allow it. It can be either allowed like spell knack, giving a non-mage/mystic adept access to spellcasting, or it can allow the drake to cast with magic only.

[Mäx]

Considering its a pure "at the GM:s discretion" rule anyway, you could just rule that those with no spelcasting skill just make the learning test using intuition alone.
Becouse of the GM discretion think, there really isn't an absolute RAW way to do it, so you need to house rule a little and house ruling thinks like this doesn't IMO take away from the experience your giving to your players.

[naga-nuyen]

I agree, and thank you. I went with taking spellcasting as a knowledge skill, thus allowing him to understand the basics of learning the spell. Than he will use his magic rating as his standard Dice pool....after he gains Foci than he will have a power focus to add to the pool

[darthmord]

At the gamemaster’s discretion, any drake character with the Dragonspeech power may also learn any Detection spell with the psychic descriptor as an Innate Spell for 5 Karma each.

This part right here solves the need for the Spellcasting skill.

So for anyone to learn one of those spells they would have to be...

- A Mage
- Or a Mystic Adept
- Or a Drake with Dragonspeech (at GM's Discretion)

Seems relatively cut & dry to me. I've done some 'At GM's Discretion' in my games. I aim to make the game more fun for the players. If it gives them laughs and a good time, it's a worthwhile ruling IMO.