Ghouls, damnit! Options

[Ascalaphus]

You're welcome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Dragon Girl]

man I wish I'd been as articulate about it, I just went about suggesting non lethal traps ..

ghouls-as-people is one of my favorite things to play with, honestly. (If that weren't incredibly obvious from the story writing). They -aren't pretty, they have a high chance of going insane- not just from the infection, but from the after effects and the way they've changed, theres no real way to make them less dangerous- and they're still people trapped in all that. Is it doing them a favor to let them live? Would it be kinder to put a bullet in them? Fun stuff to explore, especially if you really can get that moment of empathy.

[Mäx]

That's actually perfect, Ascalaphus, thanks,
I really like the idea of a layered defense.
Hell, the surface layer traps could just be obvious low-tech alarms.

I still think that a simple signs at the outer most layer saying "your about to enter a ghoul terratory" should be enought to keep everyone but dedicated ghoul hunters away.
After that you can but in deadlier and deadlier traps, just incase those ghoul hunter show up.

[Simon Kerimov]

Adding in deadlier traps gives the invaders time to learn the ghoul's tactics. It's basically a training program. The ghoul's best option is to warn trespassers off with signs, and the next layer of defense is meant to wipe the intruders. Not fantastic for a gaming session, but more realistic. Needless to say, it's a game, so this is an unlikely method to use.

[Mäx]

Adding in deadlier traps gives the invaders time to learn the ghoul's tactics. It's basically a training program.

If the first thinks are somethink relativly simple/basic and then the deadly stuff is 30 claymore mines exploding, how exactly did those basic traps repare the invaders to survive the mines.
Only a total idiot uses same desing for all traps.

[Ascalaphus]

I still think that a simple signs at the outer most layer saying "your about to enter a ghoul terratory" should be enought to keep everyone but dedicated ghoul hunters away.

Abandon all soy ye who enter here

I still think that a simple signs at the outer most layer saying "your about to enter a ghoul terratory" should be enought to keep everyone but dedicated ghoul hunters away.
After that you can but in deadlier and deadlier traps, just incase those ghoul hunter show up.

Two layers: one to show you can make traps as advertised, the second to kill anyone who will not be scared off. If a few people come back from layer 1 to report that the area really is unsafe, that'll keep out the teenagers. To that effect, the traps should be really unpleasant but not deadly, like being gross, itchy, humiliating, and sudden.

[Mayhem_2006]

Adding in deadlier traps gives the invaders time to learn the ghoul's tactics. It's basically a training program.

Thats fine - just like in D&D you can train your players to set of your traps with a 10 foot pole, then have an extra deadly trap whose trigger is 10 feet further down the corridor than the trap itself...

[Saint Sithney]

I thought these ghouls were just released?

I wouldn't expect them to have resources beyond "wire and can" noise traps, bits of sharp metal and whatever they could pull off the dead (and dead hunter/gangers.) Well that and the ferals.

[Neraph]

On the signs idea: don't forget RFID tags are good and cheap for spreading signs, and there's that one astral paint thing that could also be used to mark territories.

[Simon Kerimov]

On the signs idea: don't forget RFID tags are good and cheap for spreading signs, and there's that one astral paint thing that could also be used to mark territories.

I think they would use blood to mark their territories. It's astrally visible until it dries, and it builds up a background count to keep ghoul hunters from being able to whip out all their magics. A canny ghoul hunter would be able to infer something from a patch of drying blood scribed into a "We Don't Want Any" sign.

[Neraph]

I think they would use blood to mark their territories. It's astrally visible until it dries, and it builds up a background count to keep ghoul hunters from being able to whip out all their magics. A canny ghoul hunter would be able to infer something from a patch of drying blood scribed into a "We Don't Want Any" sign.

Yes, but an experienced ghoul hunter is either mundane or has Filtering (Filtering only costs 29 karma, really cheap these days), plus the RFID tags/astral pigments are much cheaper and get the same message across without wasting food. The point is especially broadcasting that this area is to be avoided, not that an area has ghouls. That may inadvertantly attract certain intentions.

[Simon Kerimov]

Yes, but an experienced ghoul hunter is either mundane or has Filtering (Filtering only costs 29 karma, really cheap these days), plus the RFID tags/astral pigments are much cheaper and get the same message across without wasting food. The point is especially broadcasting that this area is to be avoided, not that an area has ghouls. That may inadvertantly attract certain intentions.

I would agree. I think ghouls have one of two basic choices when it comes to security. They can either do the leper colony thing and warn people away from a distance, and try to keep their presence as soft as possible, or they can go for fear. People don't fear ghouls, they fear becoming ghouls, so using that against them is a legitimate defense. The leper ghouls probably hate that others use the violent tactics, as it makes their lives harder, but both will be used.

[Saint Sithney]

On Mayhem's points about how shitty it is living in shit, it might be worth pointing out that Ghouls, unlike some HMHVV types, aren't immune to toxins or diseases.

It.. really feels like they should be.. and it would give them a distinct advantage..

[Simon Kerimov]

On Mayhem's points about how shitty it is living in shit, it might be worth pointing out that Ghouls, unlike some HMHVV types, aren't immune to toxins or diseases.

It.. really feels like they should be.. and it would give them a distinct advantage..

More AIDS metaphor.

[Mayhem_2006]

Interesting point about toxin immunity (or lack of it) - given that runners can have handy anti-toxin implants, bear in mind that even if they are immune to carbon monoxide poisoning, a build up of carbon monoxide will just suffocate them instead - it may not be poisonous to them, but it still isn't oxygen. And since the body doesn't recognise lack of oxygen in its tissues, they be suffocating without knowing it.

That said - I don't know if a biomonitor or any implants moniter the amount of oxygen in your bloodstream, but concievably they could be made to do so - which would at least give you some warning in low oxygen areas.

***

But basically - you shouldn't mess around in sewers (or any underground space not specifically designated as habitable) unless you know what you are doing, and most people - including runners - don't.

Luckily for Runners, most GMs don't either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) - hopefully I've done a little to correct that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by Mayhem_2006: Aug 20 2010, 09:45 AM

[killfr3nzy]

To the OP; We need more details, and you need to answer some questions. You'll need them for roleplaying anyway. Such as:
- What is the ratio of Feral-to-Non? (numbers in general would be helpful, too)
- How were they treated under gang control, especially the Sane? (Ferals trained to attack any non-Ghoul entering their enclosure, Non hate/fear all metahumans, etc)
- How long have they been free, and what have they been doing in that time? (kidnapping people off the streets, moving out of the squalor/crimescene of gang headquarters, lying low, keeping Ferals under control, building/traping headquarters)
- How many knew of the Ghouls involvement with the gang, and to what degree? (kept ghouls in cage, worked with them, 'bad things' happened to those who crossed them)
- How and why are the runners alerted to this new issue (Ghouls systematicly kidnapping people, a few escaped Ferals go on a murder spiral, people hear of locals working peacfully with a Den)
- Who are the leaders? (number, attitudes, agendas, factions, dissidents, intelligence)
- What did the Sane do before they were Ghoul'd/stolen by gang (tactics/sewers/electrical knowledge for traps/security, held a job as a hacker/mage/etc and can still work in most places with some care)

Then we can suggest things in more detail.

[ Spoiler ]

Ghouls-as-people is one of my favorite things to play with, honestly. (If that weren't incredibly obvious from the story writing). They -aren't pretty, they have a high chance of going insane- not just from the infection, but from the after effects and the way they've changed, theres no real way to make them less dangerous- and they're still people trapped in all that. Is it doing them a favor to let them live? Would it be kinder to put a bullet in them? Fun stuff to explore, especially if you really can get that moment of empathy.

This is true. However, it's hard to get right, and it's rarely found. Unless the PC's have had a fair bit of contact with Ghouls (relatively peaceful, sane Ghouls at that) all they'll have to go on is public awareness/opinion. The players are the same - there are only two sets of stats in the rulebooks: one for enemies, mainly ferals and one for a contact...who's a cold-blooded organ-trader.
Even in-character, the most accepting (non-infection-able) character has to be basically racist, unless they're stupid. Not because s/he doesn't like Ghouls, but because discrimination is: "(unfair) treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice". And how are/where minorities treated? Not standing near them, as if they might smell (they probably do), avoiding all touch with them/their things/things they've touched (hello, most infectious disease ever?), treating/acting as if they're all mindless, soulless animals/dangerous criminals (again, true), etc.
The basic fact is that 8o% of Ghouls are vaguely-humanoid monstrous predators who can rip Spirits apart with their bare hands, while the remainder are brain-damaged, over-steroid'd people with violent urges and the need to feast on metahumans to live, suffering under multiple neurosi and in terrible conditions. Add to that the fact that only those in the shadows would know them as anything other than criminals, organleggers and terrorists, and most people have excellant cause for concern.
Hell, now I want to open a thread on reasons for ghoul prejudice, and watch the inferno.

[ Spoiler ]

I think they would use blood to mark their territories. It's astrally visible until it dries, and it builds up a background count to keep ghoul hunters from being able to whip out all their magics. A canny ghoul hunter would be able to infer something from a patch of drying blood scribed into a "We Don't Want Any" sign.

Uhm... Not sure of the rules, but I thought it was only when there's some seriously fucked-up shit going down that Background Count rocks up to stare and go "Woah man, what's your issue? Hey everybody, take a look at this!" like some kind of nosy pedestrian broadcasting a crashscene to youtube.
So if they've built up a background count through that marking, then it'd be from something like repeatedly eating people alive - and if they're the type to do that, then I'd gun them all down with a smile, null sheen.

[ Spoiler ]

That said - I don't know if a biomonitor or any implants moniter the amount of oxygen in your bloodstream, but concievably they could be made to do so - which would at least give you some warning in low oxygen areas.

I'd say people tend to notice that they're running shorter on breath than they should be - take some kind of Perception test, modified by what level of exertion they are at. Hell, add your Athletics dice or allow it to be swapped for Perception - you know that oblivious slab of Goblin muscle, who spends all his time eating, whoring and fighting? Well, he'd know he doesn't usually have this much difficulty catching his breath when doing X.
Make it a very hard test, with bonus' the longer they stay in the area/more they need the oxygen.

That said, Biomonitors should notice it IMO, although from memory their effect is vague. Does it pick up poisons in the blood, etc? A lot of these problmes would be lessened or ignored through use of gear most runners should have. Gas-mask w/ built-in Respirator, Skinlinked Sensor Tag w/ Biomonitor (hey, it's a type of sensor - or should be), etc.
Might be, someone should start a thread about that...

[Mayhem_2006]

I'd say people tend to notice that they're running shorter on breath than they should be

Nope, thats the point, and why it is so deadly. Unconciousness after 2-3 breaths for high concentrations of CO, which is really not enough time to register symptoms. Feelings of breathlessness are usually caused by CO2 builds up in your tissue - the human standard "biomonitor" that you are born with - the Carotid body - does not detect a fall in oxygen levels very well, so a fall in O2 without a corresponding build of of CO2 may not cause breathlessness.

Biomonitors can apparently analyse blood samples, which implies to me that they are not actually plugged into your blood as a matter of course, and so wouldn't detect a low oxygen level in your body without you actually giving the machine a sample of blood.

Fortunately , an olfactory scanner or booster, in its "analyse the air" mode, should be able to pick up low O2 levels, or dangerous levels of C02 or Hydrogen Sulphide

Here's a handy chart for the effects of CO based on the concentration:

Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, tachycardia, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2-3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.

Of course, no reason to inflict the top rating on the PCs. If they are exploring a sewer system, 0.08% concentration should be enough to start with.... Then, yes, you can start giving them some symptoms in the hope that they are smart enough to start using breathing apparatus or to bug out.



This post has been edited by Mayhem_2006: Aug 20 2010, 02:05 PM

[Ascalaphus]

The nanoware biomonitor certainly would pick it up even if a normal biomonitor wouldn't. But in the case of high doses of CO, even immediate warning that you're in it could be too late. 2-3 breaths is pretty deadly.

[killfr3nzy]

Hmm, didn't know that. But you're traveling through the area, and even with lighter-than-air gases, you would hardly ever pop straight into the "death in three breaths" area. And if you did, you'd probably pass out first, likely taking you out of the area.
And if it wasn't that quick, you start feeling ill, dizzy, etc, which are things you notice. And any good (longish-lived) runner will then back away and use every sensor they carry, furiously. Probably while cunjoring thoughts of blood magic.

[Doc Chase]

Nope, thats the point, and why it is so deadly. Unconciousness after 2-3 breaths for high concentrations of CO, which is really not enough time to register symptoms. Feelings of breathlessness are usually caused by CO2 builds up in your tissue - the human standard "biomonitor" that you are born with - the Carotid body - does not detect a fall in oxygen levels very well, so a fall in O2 without a corresponding build of of CO2 may not cause breathlessness.
*snip*

Good table. I didn't recall how dangerous CO was until I saw that again. It's why abandoned mines are so dangerous - old mines from Nevada are so bad that people can hit the high end of the scale a handful of feet from the entrance of some of them.

[Mayhem_2006]

Carbon Monoxide is heavier than air. So it flows downhill. Sewers tend to under roads, which are full of CO creating vehicles.

So you need only climb down a ladder to suddenly find yourself in a pocket of it.

There has been a case of a technician working in an inspection chamber next to a gas station forecourt. The chamber was only 4 feet deep. He climbed in, bent over to start work, and passed out.

[yesferatu]

To the OP; We need more details, and you need to answer some questions. You'll need them for roleplaying anyway. Such as:
- What is the ratio of Feral-to-Non? (numbers in general would be helpful, too)
- How were they treated under gang control, especially the Sane? (Ferals trained to attack any non-Ghoul entering their enclosure, Non hate/fear all metahumans, etc)
- How long have they been free, and what have they been doing in that time? (kidnapping people off the streets, moving out of the squalor/crimescene of gang headquarters, lying low, keeping Ferals under control, building/traping headquarters)
- How many knew of the Ghouls involvement with the gang, and to what degree? (kept ghouls in cage, worked with them, 'bad things' happened to those who crossed them)
- How and why are the runners alerted to this new issue (Ghouls systematicly kidnapping people, a few escaped Ferals go on a murder spiral, people hear of locals working peacfully with a Den)
- Who are the leaders? (number, attitudes, agendas, factions, dissidents, intelligence)
- What did the Sane do before they were Ghoul'd/stolen by gang (tactics/sewers/electrical knowledge for traps/security, held a job as a hacker/mage/etc and can still work in most places with some care)

Then we can suggest things in more detail.

Well...

1. We're probably talking about 5-10 ghouls. Probably one central family plus a few unfortunate additions.
2. They were not treated well. They would have been kept in basement cages, fed pieces of murder victims, and only let out on leashes to "clean" crime scenes.
3. They have been free for less than a week. They are on the run, scared, and not well supplied. They would have gone underground because they had nowhere else to go. They have primarily been hiding. They have not had time to entrench themselves and their ultimate goal is to escape the city.
4. The whole gang knew about them. Local competing organizations probably heard rumors.
5. I haven't quite decided why the group knows about it, I'd be perfectly happy with a concerned citizen telling them that the ghouls are missing...and that's bad.
6. Leaders of the gang or the ghouls...? The ghouls probably have one patriarch/matriarch possibly a magic user. The leader has gotten the ghouls out of bondage and he is struggling to keep them hidden and fed. There may be some internal conflict between the hiding and the hungry.
7. There is nothing remarkable about their pre-ghoul lives. They were likely turned as punishment for some slight against the gangers.

Again, this is all up for suggestions, I just had the idea and was hoping for some backup.

[Simon Kerimov]

Mayhem_2006, if I was a mutant with six arms, I would give you six thumbs up. I only have two, so that's what you get. You've given me a good reason to use the Oxyrush nanites, as I think the best way to model the carbon monoxide poisoning is by using the Fatigue Damage rules. My characters are always prepared for it, but no one uses them, so I get sad.

@killfr3nzy: I found the suggested rules for Domain Ratings when I was trying to decide how much of a background count to give the Sangre y Acero pit. We gave the pit a Blood magic aspected domain of 2 from the bloody fighting and the first human sacrifice. I imagine it will go up if we have more contestants sacrificing losers to the Smoking Mirror.

[ Spoiler ]

$imon$ez:
Street Magic p121
"DOMAIN EXAMPLES
Rating 1: These domains include areas where the emotional impact was significant but brief or areas that are of minor spiritual or magical significance. Examples include the scene of a violent crime or passionate love affair, a bar frequented regularly by the Awakened, or a rural church that is important to its small town residents.
Rating 2: These domains are generated by the emotional impact of a great number of people or by a steady emotional, spiritual or magical influence over a long period of time. The sold-out concert of a legendary musician could qualify, as could a maximum security prison or enchanter’s workshop.
Rating 3: These domains are created by a significant event in the recent past (usually within the last century). The event may be long over, but the area still reflects the event in some way. Examples include the site of a major battle or the ruined land from an environmental accident. An important cathedral or monastery where a great spiritual event occurred also qualifies.
Rating 4: These domains were not only the site of a significant event, but also still experience that event or something similar on an irregular basis. A battlefield that is honored with an emotional yearly consecration, for example, or a public park that once witnessed a massive and brutal riot and is still occasionally hosts political demonstrations.
Rating 5: These domains experienced a significant event, and the conditions that created it still exist (a meltdown area still scarred by radiation, or a major battlefield that still sees regular fighting). Sites of great emotional, spiritual, or magical significance that aren’t tied to a specific event but have generated significance over time also qualify, such as Arlington National Cemetery or Stonehenge.
Rating 6: These domains were created by historic events of epic scope that have significance to most of humanity. The blast sites of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are Rating 6 domains, as is the former Nazi death camp of Auschwitz and the Native American “Re-Education Center” at Abilene."
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--

[Saint Sithney]

Oxyrush nanites are some key gear. Only 1000¥ per 30 minutes of holding your breath. If you can't swing a Nano Hive due to Essence constraints, you can still hook it up to an auto-injector/biomonitor system. You start to snufficate, and it shoots you with 30 minutes of extra breath. Only lasts you for 2 weeks without the hive, but 1000¥ isn't too much to save your life.

If essence isn't your concern, then, bam, air tank. 600¥ is a pittance.

[Neraph]

...snufficate...

Not only do you make a good point, you've invented an amazing word too.