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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 05:05 AM
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I thought of a cute weapons system that I call the Mandelbrot Shot:

1 Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly (Device 3) : subscribed to tacnet(1) : Sensor Test pool of 6 (2 hit average) :: 2,500nY
1 Repeater Drone (Device 3) : ((( subscribed to tacnet(1) : Sensor Test pool of 6 (2 hit average) :: 3,000NnY
1 Ares Heimdall (Device 3) ((( subscribed to tacnet(1), Repeater Drone, Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly ))) : Sensor Test pool of 6 (2 hit average) :: 1,500nY

Using the Indirect Fire rules for missiles, the Ares Heimdall will roll it's Pilot skill of 3, Sensors of 2, tacnet of 1, indirect fire bonus 2 (average) gives your rocket a pool of 8 all by itself. While not nearly as good as a rigged Heimdall, it makes for a fun trap. If you want to spend an extra 300nY you can give them all Custom Look(1) and make them look like something off of cuteoverload.com.

I sort of imagined having a crate of Heimdalls and a few Butterfly and Ladybug targeting systems. It reminds me of that really weird hidden Summon from FFX with the 3 cute insects.
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Karoline
post Aug 20 2010, 05:12 AM
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A pool of 8 is actually fairly small for an attack. I can see people doing that scene from Transporter where the guy knocks the missile away with a pan or something now.

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a rocket launcher on a drone with a pilot of 4, give it a rating 4 targeting program and a smartlink and it shoots with a DP of 10. Get two of them with a tacnet and both have a DP of 11.

That sounds like a really awesome idea actually. So glad Enforcers don't have to airdrop (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 05:35 AM
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It gets better:

Butterfly: [Sensors(2) + Clearsight(3)] for getting a sensors lock 3,100nY (forgot I had to purchase the Targeting Autosoft separately)
Repeater Drone: [Sensors(2) + Targeting(3)] for using laser designator 3,600nY (between the two it is likely you will maintain a lock the whole time)
Clustered Ares Heimdalls
  • Response(3)
  • Signal(3)
  • System(3)
  • Firewall(3)
  • Subscription Limit(18)
  • Processor Limit(36)

Subscription Limit(18)
  • Strongly Connected [5]
  • Agent(6) [1]
  • 3*Agent(1) [3]
  • Internal Tacnet(1) [3]
  • Encrypt Clustered Node [3]
  • Floating for communications [3]

Program Limit(36)
  • Targeting Autosoft(6) [1]
  • 3*Targeting Autosoft(1) [3]
  • Lots of programs can be run to run recognition software of any and all varieties.


Anyway, all that complicated clustering crap nets +5 dice pool modifier, for a TOTAL DICE POOL: 13d6.hits(5). Each.

Also, you can modify the Heimdalls to play the Ride of the Valkeries on external speakers (and run a program to Edit the output to account for Doppler Shift at 3000 m/turn) as they converge on the poor bastard who upset the butterfly.
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 05:38 AM
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A camera shot of a Heimdall canister letting loose 6 missile drones while playing inspiring music is a sure crowd pleaser.
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Mäx
post Aug 20 2010, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 20 2010, 07:05 AM) *
I thought of a cute weapons system that I call the Mandelbrot Shot:

1 Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly (Device 3) : subscribed to tacnet(1) : Sensor Test pool of 6 (2 hit average) :: 2,500nY
1 Repeater Drone (Device 3) : ((( subscribed to tacnet(1) : Sensor Test pool of 6 (2 hit average) :: 3,000NnY
1 Ares Heimdall (Device 3) ((( subscribed to tacnet(1), Repeater Drone, Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly ))) : Sensor Test pool of 6 (2 hit average) :: 1,500nY

Using the Indirect Fire rules for missiles, the Ares Heimdall will roll it's Pilot skill of 3, Sensors of 2, tacnet of 1, indirect fire bonus 2 (average) gives your rocket a pool of 8 all by itself. While not nearly as good as a rigged Heimdall, it makes for a fun trap. If you want to spend an extra 300nY you can give them all Custom Look(1) and make them look like something off of cuteoverload.com.

I sort of imagined having a crate of Heimdalls and a few Butterfly and Ladybug targeting systems. It reminds me of that really weird hidden Summon from FFX with the 3 cute insects.

I dont think that is how Heimdall works, its a Drone so you just shoot it from a launcher and then you drive it to target like any other drone, no shooting pools involved.
But keep in mind that it can only turn 30 degrees in a combat turn and during that combat turn it travels 3 kilometers down range.
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 07:19 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 20 2010, 01:01 AM) *
I dont think that is how Heimdall works, its a Drone so you just shoot it from a launcher and then you drive it to target like any other drone, no shooting pools involved.
But keep in mind that it can only turn 30 degrees in a combat turn and during that combat turn it travels 3 kilometers down range.


It's a guided missile microdrone that doesn't have to explode.

QUOTE
$imon$ez:
Arsenal p117
"Ares Heimdall (Drone Missile)
The Heimdall is thought to be the ultimate choice in guided missile technology, replacing a missile’s complicated guidance system with a rigger module. The system is centered around an air breathing missile that can be fired from a standard rocket launcher. Once launched, a small airfoil unfurls to extend the range, with the drone gliding, then turning its engine on to gain altitude then gliding again. This allows for an operation time of up to 18 seconds—enough time to get the lay of the land and determine the tactical positions of the opposition, before crashing into a target chosen by the rigger.
The Heimdall’s main advantage as an attack weapon is that the metahuman mind is not as easily spoofed by countermeasures as an electronic brain, while the main drawback is the high speed that overtaxes everyone but the fastest riggers, so its main field of application remains short-term reconnaissance in combat situations where a slower moving drone would be shot down.
The Heimdall has a very limited maneuverability. Once fired, it moves with a speed of anywhere between 2000 and 3000 meters per Combat Turn (about 200 to 300 km/h) and can turn up to 30 degree per Combat Turn. Its maximum operation time is 6 Combat Turns. It can either be equipped with an Anti-Vehicle (+1,000¥), Fragmentation (+500¥) or High Explosion (+750¥) missile warhead (p. 314, SR4).
Similar Models: Saeder-Krupp KSR-6, Evo Nightbird"
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--


QUOTE
$imon$ez:
SR4 p314
"Rockets and Missiles
Rockets are projectiles consisting of a light metal or plastic body with stabilizing fins, a propulsion system (usually solid-chemical), and a warhead. They are considered “dumb” weapons because they go only where they are pointed and have no internal or external guidance capability.
Missiles are rockets that carry internal guidance and tracking systems, and are more expensive than standard “dumb” rockets. Because of their sophisticated electronics, missiles are considered “smart” weapons. The onboard electronics assist the firer in acquiring and hitting the target.
See Resolving Rocket and Missile Fire, p. 146, for rules on firing rockets and missiles. Rockets and missiles are set to arm when they have traveled 20 meters from their point of origin and explode on impact. This safety feature can be disabled with an Armorer + Logic (3, 5 Minutes) Extended Test. Rockets/missiles fired with an airburst link (see p. 311) can be exploded in midair at a predefined location (reducing scatter to 1D6).
Anti-Vehicle: AV rockets/missiles contain a shaped-charge warhead designed to burn or punch its way through a vehicle or barrier. Though the impact causes a blast, it is limited compared to that of a High-Explosive projectile. AV attacks have an AP of –6 against vehicles, –2 against other targets.
Fragmentation: Used principally against people, the warhead discharges high-speed metal or plastic-metal fragments designed to tear into unprotected flesh. These rockets/missiles are very effective against unprotected individuals, but fairly ineffective against barriers, structures, and vehicles.
High-Explosive: HE rockets/missiles are designed to do heavy damage to a large area. Their blast pattern is similar to that of a grenade, but much larger. They are not particularly effective against hardened targets, such as vehicles or protected military structures. HE weapons use the standard grenade rules for determining the blast and its effects."
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--


I fail to see how making a rocket smarter precludes it from using dumber targeting sytsems. A Heimdall guided by a Pilot is no different than a normal missile, except that it has the option of being jammed by a rigger for a quick 18 kilometer run as a messenger.

I think of it like the model rockets I used to have, except these are made of titanium, are as smart as a puppy, and carry military grade blam.
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Mäx
post Aug 20 2010, 07:30 AM
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Nowhere in the heimdalls description is it said that you use any kind of shooting rules for it, its a drone so either you fly it like any other drone or it fly's it self using the pilot.
Hitting a target with heimdall is no different then tramming them with some other drone, except that heimdall carries an explosive payload.
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 20 2010, 01:30 AM) *
Nowhere in the heimdalls description is it said that you use any kind of shooting rules for it, its a drone so either you fly it like any other drone or it fly's it self using the pilot.
Hitting a target with heimdall is no different then tramming them with some other drone, except that heimdall carries an explosive payload.


And if you turn the Pilot program off, what do you have?
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Mäx
post Aug 20 2010, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 20 2010, 10:14 AM) *
And if you turn the Pilot program off, what do you have?

A massive paper weight?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 20 2010, 02:36 AM) *
A massive paper weight?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


With rocket fuel.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 20 2010, 01:52 PM
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Would it use ramming damage rules? That could potentially do far more damage than an explosion..
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 20 2010, 07:52 AM) *
Would it use ramming damage rules? That could potentially do far more damage than an explosion..


It needs to be traveling at 3 km/s before it delivers it's own weight in blam. That's the threshold where any mass causes as much damage as it's equivalent mass in TNT. If you use the Movement Power on it with a Force 3 Spirit, then yes, we live in craterville. The only problem is that we are now applying Physics to Magic, which are notorious for not playing nice, so you might get kittens instead of a kinetic explosion.
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killfr3nzy
post Aug 20 2010, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 21 2010, 02:28 AM) *
It needs to be traveling at 3 km/s before it delivers it's own weight in blam. That's the threshold where any mass causes as much damage as it's equivalent mass in TNT. If you use the Movement Power on it with a Force 3 Spirit, then yes, we live in craterville. The only problem is that we are now applying Physics to Magic, which are notorious for not playing nice, so you might get kittens instead of a kinetic explosion.


"Oh God, I've been covered in KITTENS! I'm allergic! *cough* *hack*"
"Hmmm, unexpected but....well, it worked."
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TommyTwoToes
post Aug 20 2010, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 20 2010, 03:30 AM) *
Nowhere in the heimdalls description is it said that you use any kind of shooting rules for it, its a drone so either you fly it like any other drone or it fly's it self using the pilot.
Hitting a target with heimdall is no different then tramming them with some other drone, except that heimdall carries an explosive payload.

This would eliminate the retarded scatter rules and let you actually hit a vehicle with a missle.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 20 2010, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 20 2010, 08:28 PM) *
It needs to be traveling at 3 km/s before it delivers it's own weight in blam. That's the threshold where any mass causes as much damage as it's equivalent mass in TNT. If you use the Movement Power on it with a Force 3 Spirit, then yes, we live in craterville. The only problem is that we are now applying Physics to Magic, which are notorious for not playing nice, so you might get kittens instead of a kinetic explosion.


Well, a Heimdal's speed is between 2-3km/s, so that's a theoretical possibility..

I just checked up on the Ramming damage, and the Heimdall's low Body (1) pretty much makes it impossible to score nice ramming damage with it. Because at 200+ m/s (Heimdall going at 10-15x that), it still does only Body x 3 damage. Annoying, I rather liked the idea of mini-Thor shots.
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 20 2010, 03:09 PM) *
Well, a Heimdal's speed is between 2-3km/s, so that's a theoretical possibility..

I just checked up on the Ramming damage, and the Heimdall's low Body (1) pretty much makes it impossible to score nice ramming damage with it. Because at 200+ m/s (Heimdall going at 10-15x that), it still does only Body x 3 damage. Annoying, I rather liked the idea of mini-Thor shots.


All of the movement rates in the game are in meters/Combat Turn, so you need to divide the Speed by 3 to get to meters/second. The Heimdall gets to 1000 meter/second (1 km/s), which is short of being a railgun projectile. The movement critter power can allow it to go up to 24 km/second (Maximum summonable Spirit is 2*Magic, Maximum Magic is 6+Initiate Grade, Maximum Initiate Grade is 6).

If we assume a Body 1 drone weighs 1 kg, and use Newtonian physics, we have the equation of KE = (m*v2)/2

KE = 1 kg * (24,000 m/s)2
KE = 1 kg * 576,000,000 m2/s2
KE = 576,000,000 kg m2/s2
KE = 576,000,000 joules
KE = 576 megajoules

For reference, compare this to a 4 ton (8,000 kg) vehicle crashing into a wall at 60 meters/second (216 km/hour), which has a KE of "merely" 14.4 megajoules.

Another reference, terminal velocity for a metahuman is about 200 km/hour or about 56 m/s. A 100 kilo individual weighs 220 lbs, so we'll use that for reference. This comes to about 0.15 megajoules.

All of this aside, the ramming tables and the falling damage tables don't even make much of a nod at physics, and we are abusing magic here, so in all likelihood there would be some GM-level mishap that kept this from working.
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Udoshi
post Aug 20 2010, 09:05 PM
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Just saying, with a Heimdal's speed of 3000 per turn (3 seconds), it -really- shouldn't be hard to claim Surprise for a missile launched a few kilometers away.

After all, Ramming attacks are treated as Melee attacks, and you can't defend if you're surprised.

The benefit of an airstrike is, well, ground targets hardly ever knew what hit em. And a heimdal is basically a self-guiding airstrike.

You don't -need- to optimize your dice pools if you're using a weapon heading at someone who has absolutely no idea its coming.
Buuuut if you need to, Pirated Autosofts are a good, cheap, cost effective way to do it.

Also, Simon forgot to add a Seeker Warhead to the heimdal, which it needs to benefit from a target designator.
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killfr3nzy
post Aug 20 2010, 10:40 PM
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Are these one-use? It seems like they'd get fk'd way up. And if they're one-use, I'm guessing you plan on adding an impact-detonated warhead to it?

Udoshi - Why pirated 'softs? I mean, this is for Shadow-War, so I guess it is cheaper for no real drawback, but outside of that, normal 'Softs can be put in multiple Drones.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 20 2010, 11:25 PM
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The annoying part of the Heimdal is that you can't really rig-jump into it to guide it's final bit of movement, because you'd take really nasty biofeedback.
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 20 2010, 11:55 PM
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I'll look up that seeker warhead.

The Heimdall is multi-use in the same way that the "Firefly" version of the Dragonfly drone is: Multi-use until you use it's payload of blam, then it's gone.
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 21 2010, 04:28 AM
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And if anyone still wondered if there was something wrong with me:

EVO Worldwear Robot Toys proudly presents:
CONTRA TEAM
240,800nY

[ Spoiler ]
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Sengir
post Aug 21 2010, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 20 2010, 06:35 AM) *
It gets better:

Butterfly: [Sensors(2) + Clearsight(3)] for getting a sensors lock 3,100nY (forgot I had to purchase the Targeting Autosoft separately)
Repeater Drone: [Sensors(2) + Targeting(3)] for using laser designator 3,600nY (between the two it is likely you will maintain a lock the whole time)
Clustered Ares Heimdalls
  • Response(3)
  • Signal(3)
  • System(3)
  • Firewall(3)
  • Subscription Limit(18)
  • Processor Limit(36)

  • The Heimdall should qualify as a military drone, which means device rating 5...
  • ...which less than 6, so the agent and autosofts will only run at 5
  • I'm not execatly sure how you get that +5 modifier
  • The maximum initiate grade equals the Magic attribute. Hello relativistic speeds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


But anyway, 13 dice are not really worth all that rule-bending effort. A standard military vehicle rolls 5 (Pilot) + 5 (Autosoft) + 2 (Smartlink) - 2 (indirect fire) = 10 + x dice, x being the spotter's hits. Since the spotter is doing a suprise attack against a stationary target with plenty of time to take aim, that will be a nice load of extra dice. Now if we just got a PzH 2070 with a three-shell burst, I'd be a happy man (and maybe by 2070 it finally has air conditioning and dust filters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).
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Saint Sithney
post Aug 21 2010, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Aug 20 2010, 11:38 AM) *
This would eliminate the retarded scatter rules and let you actually hit a vehicle with a missle.


That's why everybody loves a Heimdall.. and a Multi-launch drone rack.

Fraggers can't dodge a piloting check. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
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Simon Kerimov
post Aug 21 2010, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Aug 21 2010, 04:51 PM) *
That's why everybody loves a Heimdall.. and a Multi-launch drone rack.

Fraggers can't dodge a piloting check. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)


I...hadn't thought of that. They are microdrones, aren't they? So the Multilaunch can dump 10 of them in 1 Complex Action. Wow.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 21 2010, 10:50 PM
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Mini.
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