Proposed fix, Imagine magic being rare Options

[Androcomputus]

I was GMing shadowrun and found magic, for something rare, a little too common. To solve this problem, I decided that magician does not exist, and mystic adept is an initiation grade instead of a qualities.

The result was magic was something exotic and not mainstream. Basically you have characters that were better at what they do because they were "spiritually attuned". Balance wise, I did not have to stick someone with counterspell capabilities in every single encounter because their was a mage in the group, only to have that annoying reminder that only one in a million people are attuned and only one in those million can really do stuff with their magic.

What does the rest of the community think of this tweak to the rules?

[killfr3nzy]

I think Mages are pretty f*cking powerful. I don't always get why everyone seems to have so much difficulty. For all that mana-spells are overpowered, Summoners are worse I think (or better, depending on what side you're on).
Mages are generally physically weak, and need LOS to cast spells. No enemies (obviously there are exceptions in tough-as-hell-bastards, drug-courage'd gangers and fools) should be hitting cover in the first rounds of Combat, and even those with more stupidity than training will be seeking it after seeing/hearing/feeling some autofire and fireballs. If the guards have control of a camera, drone or even a Smartlink, they can sit completely out of sight and fire out, taking the penalties in preference to damage.
Therefore making it harder for Mages draw LOS without exposing themselves to return fire.

[pbangarth]

Androcomputus, do you have adepts from chargen, who then initiate into mysticism? If so, does this not just change the form of expression of magic, rather than limiting its occurence.

Your point about the fact of the prevalence of magic in the game not corresponding with the rarity claimed in the fluff is inarguable. Maybe, though, as has been argued elsewhere, shadowrunning is one of those 'professions' that attracts magicians, and that if one looked at the whole population in the game, the percentages would approach those of the fluff.

[CanRay]

Maybe, though, as has been argued elsewhere, shadowrunning is one of those 'professions' that attracts magicians, and that if one looked at the whole population in the game, the percentages would approach those of the fluff.

Yeah, Coyote Shamans have a hard time with the "Half-hour Lunch Hour" rule that Corporations have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Nene Shamans, on the other hand... Nasty.

[Prime Mover]

It's why the phrase geek the mage first exists. A good sniper drone at a distance equals things out quickly.

[Acme]

Yeah, Coyote Shamans have a hard time with the "Half-hour Lunch Hour" rule that Corporations have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Nene Shamans, on the other hand... Nasty.

Wait, you always took half an hour? Pssh... I'm still on my lunch break. I'm sure my job at the corp'll be there.

[Ragman]

It's why the phrase geek the mage first exists. A good sniper drone at a distance equals things out quickly.

I dont think the player playing the mage would like rolling a new char for every run...

[Doc Byte]

Maybe, though, as has been argued elsewhere, shadowrunning is one of those 'professions' that attracts magicians, and that if one looked at the whole population in the game, the percentages would approach those of the fluff.

How many essence 0,0x armed to the teeth combat monsters live in an average neighborhood? More than 1% or less? And how many hackers that can take one high-end ICE? There are ten AAA corps. Do dragons rule 10% of the global economy? Are 10% of the world's population dragons? One of them was even president of the UCAS for one day. How likely was that?

[CanRay]

How likely was Dunkie to become president?

Well, look at the alternatives. I'm surprised the race was as close as it was.

[Acme]

Yeah, we could have had a Mantis Spirit as the president. Wouldn't that have been fun?

"I think... We're gonna drop the wall in Chicago." "But... Madame President, what about the bugs?" "Meh."

[Glyph]

Magic is rare overall in the game world, although becoming more and more common. But it will not be rare either in shadrunner teams, or in the targets that they typically go up against. Doctors are rarer today, even in developed countries, than the percentages given for awakened metahumans. But go into a hospital, and you'll see lots and lots of them!

You can do whatever you want in your own game, but you're not bringing the crunch in line with the fluff. You're making magic more rare because you want a game with less magic.

Your proposed house rule seems wonky to me, though, because it would make any wannabe mage have to start out as an anemically weak spellcaster/conjurer, who can't even begin to be a mage before char-gen, while sammies, and adepts get to start out powerful right out the gate. I couldn't imagine ever wanting to play a mage with such a house rule. I mean, you have to initiate, raise your Magic to have an effective Magic of 1 for magician skills, then buy several skills at rating: 1? It would take several more initiations, and Magic increases, and several skills being raised - in other words, tons of Karma - to be a mediocre mage. Most players would say "Screw it" and become more powerful and well-rounded adepts, instead. There is a difference between "rarer" and "unplayable".

[Voran]

Yeah, much as I'm wary about mages, I'd be concerned that this particular approach would make them less viable at starting levels. Sure they'd be able to get better over time, but they wouldn't quite start off at equal footing.

That said, I'm still not a fan of the 'yeah mages are rare, but...oh look, PCs will run into them ALL THE TIME cause that's how megas roll."

[jimbo]

Your point about the fact of the prevalence of magic in the game not corresponding with the rarity claimed in the fluff is inarguable. Maybe, though, as has been argued elsewhere, shadowrunning is one of those 'professions' that attracts magicians, and that if one looked at the whole population in the game, the percentages would approach those of the fluff.

To go a little further, Johnson's would favor Fixers that have a mage on call, and therefore Fixers would strive to have access to mages.

I suppose the circular arguement could then be that every team/threat/group wants/has access to mages, but the glass cannon model of SR guarantees no one is safe or too powerful anyway.

Basically, in all my years of gaming I'd say SR is the most challenging to a GM and players on a variety of levels I won't bother to list.

You want basic system complexity, look for a game called Aftermath with its "Missile Special Effects" tables and flowcharts for attacking AND damage.

But I'd say SR is king for complexity for a GM and players looking to engage in excellent roleplying, possible death because of miscalculation, possible "wow,my char just got seriously mechanically boned" because of miscalculation, and "dang you just got wacked semi-accidentally by dice/odd rule/overpowered game mechanic...

[Redcrow]

IMO those aspects of the SR magic system that set it apart from other rpgs are precisely the components that cause the most headaches. One of the most annoying for me is the distinction made between Mana vs. Physical spells. Personally I'd like to see that division completely eliminated because I don't feel it really adds anything of value to the game and I can't recall a single piece of fluff where the distinction was important or really made a difference.

[Acme]

Uh, unless they fixed that, mana spells are the only ones you can use while projecting. That's the biggest thing I can think of where you have fluff distinction. YOu can argue that the whole "mana can't affect non-living spells" and the like can be just written into the description, but the Mana only when projecting is kinda a big one.

[Redcrow]

Uh, unless they fixed that, mana spells are the only ones you can use while projecting. That's the biggest thing I can think of where you have fluff distinction. YOu can argue that the whole "mana can't affect non-living spells" and the like can be just written into the description, but the Mana only when projecting is kinda a big one.

Astral is just another area that needs to be re-worked because its full of headache inducing silliness as well.

[jimbo]

Probably to go along with Redcrow's sentiments is the idea that oodles of fluff paragraphs that kinda/sorta tells you how things work, or open up wide doors of interpreting how things work, should be clarified (?) with clear bullet statements, or tables, or whatever.

[Ascalaphus]

If you make wizards really rare, won't that just increase the out-of-control problem when someone does manage to build a functional one? You can harldy justify having enough NPC wizards to keep them in check at that point.

[Glyph]

If you make wizards really rare, won't that just increase the out-of-control problem when someone does manage to build a functional one? You can harldy justify having enough NPC wizards to keep them in check at that point.

Or conversely, the players will get pissed whenever they encounter an NPC mage, since that house rule makes it so close to impossible for them to be mages.

[killfr3nzy]

"I think... We're gonna drop the wall in Chicago." "But... Madame President, what about the bugs?" "Meh."

"I'm sure they'll see reason and support peace."
"..."
"Maybe they just want a hug?"

[Doc Byte]

That said, I'm still not a fan of the 'yeah mages are rare, but...oh look, PCs will run into them ALL THE TIME cause that's how megas roll."

There are less cops on the streets than awakened. Why on earth do they happen to appear at every crime scene?

[Badmoodguy88]

You could double the cost of all the main magic qualities. Both for adept and aspected magician but not astral chameleon or magic resistance because it does not give you a magical ability. Alternately you could very slightly raise karma costs to learn spells and initiate. 1 more karma to gain a spell. 2 more karma to initiate or maybe 10% more expensive rounded down. Magic is not wildly over powered but it may be a little over powered.

[Critias]

If it's working for your group, great. I don't think it's necessarily a "fix" because that term implies that something is universally agreed upon as being broken, and as such needs repair. As house rules go, though, I guess it's a reasonable one -- if you and the players are having fun, and like the feel of that world better, then more power to ya.

[Badmoodguy88]

I personally don't think it needs a fix but it it got one it should be a small one.

But I do like that other thread where the party started at a really low build point level. They were not allowed to have mystic adept or magician qualities at the start but were able to buy them later.

You could have them all start at 350BP and buy latent magical awakenings. Then let them awaken after they save up enough karma.

[Laodicea]

If you see the problem as being the frequency with which you run into magic, I'd direct you to all the statements above about shadowrunning being a job where magic is much more common than usual.

If you see the problem as being the potency of magic & magicians, I'd point you to any thread about overcasting, and possibly direct spells, conjuring, and the shapechange spell. People have some pretty reasonable house rules for those things.