Suprise Cybersurgery, Savior Medkit abuses Options

[Simon Kerimov]

I've got no neat quotes and piles of rules to back this, so it's just speculation. Could a nefarious bastard use Nanoinfectors with a stack of medkit nanites (med-nanites, nano-symbiots, Savior Medkit, etc) to grow a piece of cyberware or bioware inside of someone? Could I force genetic alterations on them?

[Karoline]

All of those things are likely to be way more complex (and large) than what you're looking at can manage. Genetic alterations require months in special bio-goo with an entire tank full of nanites. Bioware requires weeks to culture in carefully regulated settings. Cyberware would be the most plausible, but an entire nanoforge (Not all that large, but not something nanosized) is required even to make simple items, I doubt that nanites can have the programing to actually build something as complex as cyberware on their own, nor would they have access to the materials required for it inside a body.

[Simon Kerimov]

All of those things are likely to be way more complex (and large) than what you're looking at can manage. Genetic alterations require months in special bio-goo with an entire tank full of nanites. Bioware requires weeks to culture in carefully regulated settings. Cyberware would be the most plausible, but an entire nanoforge (Not all that large, but not something nanosized) is required even to make simple items, I doubt that nanites can have the programing to actually build something as complex as cyberware on their own, nor would they have access to the materials required for it inside a body.

I was planning on having them harvest from the host body to get the parts it needs. But they would need a reprogrammable nanohive to stay alive long enough to grow an organ. I guess that would defeat the "surprise" part.

[Karoline]

Odd as it may sound, I doubt a human body would be a good place to grow bioware, it is exceptionally hostile, as shown by the fact that nanites degrade without a hive to resupply them.

And yeah, not going to be able to get what you need for cyberware from a body either.

Edit: It is an interesting idea, and I like it, but just don't think it is possible with the nanotech level that SR has.

[Simon Kerimov]

Edit: It is an interesting idea, and I like it, but just don't think it is possible with the nanotech level that SR has.

I'll just file that idea under Eclipse Phase for now.

I'm really impressed with how impossible that game is to munchkin. It is pleasing.

[DocTaotsu]

You haven't been here long enough then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) SR4A is vaguely tamper resistant if you don't look too hard or jostle it too much. It works for me but many a Dumpshocker has spent hours ranting about "major problems' in virtually every aspect of this game.

[Kruger]

Yeah, the problem with cyberware will be the lack of materials. The nanites will not be able to fabricate the cyberware out of thin air.

The problem with bioware is going to be the body's immune system. I know Shadowrun doesn't model the kind of careful immuno-suppression that would probably be required for even the simplest Bioware, but probably well, well out of the capabilities of nano-tech.

[Karoline]

I think there is some mention in Arsenal or Augmentation about bioware surgery including things to suppress the immune system a bit so that it can adjust to the bioware a bit before coming on full strength. Doubt it would be hard for a nanite to carry a shot of that, but you're still looking at weeks of grow time and it is still an exceedingly hostile environment, even if you completely kill the immune system (In which case they'll die of the common cold before the bioware is done growing)

[Oehler the Black]

I'm really impressed with how impossible that game is to munchkin. It is pleasing.

Be careful with such statements, it might summon them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

Although I got to say the idea is intriguing. Perhaps a assassination with injected carcerands bearing Destroyers or Smart Corrosives programed to rip apart phospholipids, leaving the target as a pool of proteins after a rather agonizing time period.

Heck, I shudder to think what NanoSpy might do in some unlucky fool ingest a colony.

[Simon Kerimov]

Heck, I shudder to think what NanoSpy might do in some unlucky fool ingest a colony.

That depends on whether nanites work more like a mold, or more like clockwork. One way would be a painless colonoscopy, the other is freakish cancer.

There is a drug for dropping the immune system: Zero. With that and O-cells to artificially inflate the immune system you should be fine as long as the O-Cells last. O-Cells go up to Rating 9, so you would have 9 weeks of it tapering off as the implant grew.

A nanohive is the size of an egg, and an eye can be grown in two weeks. I wouldn't argue that an eyeball in a medical vat and a nanohive in the hostile environment of a human body are the same, but a Rating 6 injection has 6 weeks until it is entirely flushed from the victim.

[The Grue Master]

You can always try a custom made (i.e. made by someone else for this purpose) Genetic Infusion if your desire is spontaneous genetic transformation. Sure, it's a crapshoot but if you're lucky one in a dozen wageslaves comes out with a beautiful, extra pair of [insert organ here]. With the right kind of social tests you might even convince them to let you take it out for free (who wants an extra pair of testicles on their permanent corporate medical history).

[Simon Kerimov]

You can always try a custom made (i.e. made by someone else for this purpose) Genetic Infusion if your desire is spontaneous genetic transformation. Sure, it's a crapshoot but if you're lucky one in a dozen wageslaves comes out with a beautiful, extra pair of [insert organ here]. With the right kind of social tests you might even convince them to let you take it out for free (who wants an extra pair of testicles on their permanent corporate medical history).

I wasn't thinking of it as a place to make organs, but as a way to implant it. I can see commercials aimed at insecure teenagers of a rub on cream that makes your muscles bigger, because it's a Muscle Augmentation kit.

[Simon Kerimov]

Oh, hey, what do you know. Implant Medic. It repairs damaged cybernetic systems automatically. "Repairs" isn't "makes", but it's closer.

[Dahrken]

Nanotech in Shadowrun is by canon not advanced enough for this kind of stuff. Genetic alteration for exemple need the recipent to be hooked in a tankfull of "magic goo" to be kept alive during the procedure, and careful adjustment to the procees to handle glitches and unplanned incompatibilities

Honestly if someone developped a reliable technology to do what you suggest he could make huge heaps of money simply by licensing/selling it to the AAAs - and the technology and inventor would be the targets of runs at the highest level.

[Stahlseele]

No, you can't make Star Trek Borgs in Shadowrun. Yet.

[Badmoodguy88]

I think it would be totally possible to have a Savior Medkit be booby tapped with poisons and hostile nanites for some looter to find. Or mix it up and get more complicated. Have the autosoft try to kill the person it is used on if they don't match the biomonitor of a known individual and or are used by an unknown individual. All the little variations on this are easy to come up with.

One of the savior medkit's 2 uses of medical supplies might be poison. Or maybe just one of the spare savior medkit supply packs are just badly tampered with so that it will poison anyone who attempts to heal with it regardless of which savior medkit it is put into. If the medkit can detect that it is loaded with poisons instead of medicine then it can be paired with a medkit that specifically will not report a specific kind of tampered savior medkit supplie pack.

This could be done subtly. If it is working on an already critically wounded person it could just appear to critically glitch.

[Doc Chase]

Spoof the medkit's treatment program or inventory. Make it think it's giving 10cc's of cortisone when it's really giving 10cc's of potassium, or a syringe of empty air.

[Daylen]

I'm really impressed with how impossible that game is to munchkin. It is pleasing.

Once upon a time I would take that as a challenge... anyhow I highly doubt it you just aren't looking hard enough.

[Simon Kerimov]

Once upon a time I would take that as a challenge... anyhow I highly doubt it you just aren't looking hard enough.

Or perhaps I am using a different definition for munchkin. I also feel that Exalted is very hard to break, and for similar reasons.

[Kruger]

The accepted definition of munchkin that I always understood was essentially the worst of "powergamers". And I've yet to find a game some people didn't try to do that in. People powergame Paranoia, lol.

[Daylen]

Or perhaps I am using a different definition for munchkin. I also feel that Exalted is very hard to break, and for similar reasons.

Oh my, I didn't realize it was that sort of game.

[Simon Kerimov]

Oh my, I didn't realize it was that sort of game.

It is mostly grounded in hard-scifi, but you have capabilities that are fairly incredible. In the end it doesn't matter because the point of the game is how utterly outclassed transhumanity is in the face of galactic perspective. I used .17% of my starting resources to buy a full, self replicating nanofabber. Not even close to a game breaker. I also used less than 5% of my starting resources to guarantee that I could never be killed. Not a game breaker, there are many things worse than death. I was in a game where one of the PC's, and the player, gave another player the thumbs-up to evaporate him and melt his stack. Motivations are very different when your sense of self can be copied by the millions.