Sustaining in SR4 (20A), When doesn't it work? Under possession? |
Sustaining in SR4 (20A), When doesn't it work? Under possession? |
Aug 23 2010, 03:11 PM
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#1
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 5-March 09 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 16,946 |
What circumstances prevent a mage from continuing to sustain a spell?
From page 184 (20A edition core) QUOTE Many spells can be sustained for as long as the magician is willing to concentrate on the spell, as noted in the spell’s Duration. also from p184 QUOTE If the gamemaster chooses, certain circumstances may threaten to break a magician’s concentration while she is sustaining a spell, such as taking damage, full defense, dropping prone, and so on. I take this to mean that in situations where the magician is unable to concentrate (going to sleep for the night, for instance, or otherwise going unconcious), the sustained spell dies. What about sustaining spells while being possessed? If my mage casts increased reflexes on the Street Sam, and then fails his int+will roll to fight off an enemy task spirit, does the Street Sam stay boosted, or am I unable to sustain it? From SM p102 QUOTE The mind of the vessel remains in whatever state it was when possession began; if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness locked inside its own body for the duration. Does this "state of mind" of the vessel magician include concentrating on sustaining the spell? If so, can I cast increase reflexes on myself, have a spirit possess me, and have the spirit romp around with a boosted 4IP? Or does my physical mask spell drop upon possession? Since (from SM p101) QUOTE the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity for the duration. Does the spirit take a -2 penalty from sustaining the spell? Under counterspelling sustained effects (20A p185) QUOTE Counterspelling also allows a magician to dispel a sustained or quickened spell, canceling its effect. The character must be on the same plane, must be able to perceive the spell she is targeting, and must use a Complex Action. Does this imply that sustaining too needs to be done from the same plane as the spell effect (so Astral perception / projection might disrupt physical spells), or simply contrast to countering spells as they are cast, where the magician can counter spells even if (s)he cannot perceive them. I saw no clarifications from the SR4 FAQ Thanks in advance --gargaM0NK |
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Aug 23 2010, 03:15 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 572 Joined: 6-February 09 From: London Uk Member No.: 16,848 |
What circumstances prevent a mage from continuing to sustain a spell? From page 184 (20A edition core) also from p184 I take this to mean that in situations where the magician is unable to concentrate (going to sleep for the night, for instance, or otherwise going unconcious), the sustained spell dies. What about sustaining spells while being possessed? If my mage casts increased reflexes on the Street Sam, and then fails his int+will roll to fight off an enemy task spirit, does the Street Sam stay boosted, or am I unable to sustain it? From SM p102 Does this "state of mind" of the vessel magician include concentrating on sustaining the spell? If so, can I cast increase reflexes on myself, have a spirit possess me, and have the spirit romp around with a boosted 4IP? Or does my physical mask spell drop upon possession? Since (from SM p101) Does the spirit take a -2 penalty from sustaining the spell? Under counterspelling sustained effects (20A p185) Does this imply that sustaining too needs to be done from the same plane as the spell effect (so Astral perception / projection might disrupt physical spells), or simply contrast to countering spells as they are cast, where the magician can counter spells even if (s)he cannot perceive them. I saw no clarifications from the SR4 FAQ Thanks in advance --gargaM0NK A straight up mage wouldnt be in control and as such in my mind wouldnt be able to sustain a spell. If it was a mage with channaling then he could as he would still be himself as such) |
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Aug 23 2010, 03:40 PM
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#3
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Good questions. I like your reasoning: if simple things like dropping prone are suggested, you can bet that possession is a little distracting.
In vanilla possession, the spirit *is* the active thing. The vessel is just a passive vessel; (the spirit) definitely can't sustain spells it didn't even cast (out of the box). Counterspelling has to follow the rules for spellcasting, I think; sustaining doesn't, so you can sustain across planes. When dispelling a persistent spell, you target the spell, not the sustainer; you must be in the correct plane. |
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Aug 23 2010, 03:51 PM
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#4
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,680 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
I concur with the answers so far. In particular there is a major difference between a mage who has Channeling and one who does not. It might get a little more confusing in the case of sustaining foci. If a spell is cast into a sustaining focus, and maintained by it, and then your mage gets possessed by a spirit, there may be some argument as to whether the focus is "in contact enough" with the mage to keep itself active. SR4A page 199 says,
QUOTE ...a focus continues to operate as long as it Presumably this level of contact would not be broken by being possessed by a spirit, and so the combined entity would still get the benefit, regardless of who is in control of the body.
is on the owner’s person, be it worn, carried, hand-held, or in a pocket or pouch. |
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Aug 23 2010, 04:15 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 5-March 09 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 16,946 |
Thanks guys.
@Lansdren So you're saying that the magician's mind isn't what matters, it's the magician's spirit? What is this based on? @Yerameyahu For dropping prone and whatnot, the core suggests a test to maintain concentration. As far as not being able to cast, I was under the impression that spellcasting is more difficult than sustaining, so while you can't cast (because you can't access your Magic attribute), you might still be able to sustain (because it seems to only mention concentration). @pbangarth I like this argument, because Channeling seems like one of those vague "it becomes better." "how?" "it just does" kind of metamagic techniques, and having sustaining spells while possessed as one of the tangible benefits feels in the ballpark of right. Also like the sustaining foci argument... I didn't think to check there. |
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Aug 23 2010, 04:17 PM
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#6
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Sorry, I meant that the possessing spirit can't sustain a spell *it* didn't even cast; it's the one in control.
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Aug 23 2010, 04:32 PM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
@pbangarth I like this argument, because Channeling seems like one of those vague "it becomes better." "how?" "it just does" kind of metamagic techniques I would think that the fact that with it your the one in control and not the spirit would be plenty enought answer for that "how?", every single possesion mage should iniate as fast as they can and get Channeling, preferaply in chargen. Without channeling the GM:s under no obligation to even let you control your character while possessed, except for giving orders to the spirits. |
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Aug 23 2010, 04:36 PM
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#8
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Well, you don't have to get *yourself* Possessed, but yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Aug 23 2010, 07:35 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 5-March 09 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 16,946 |
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Aug 23 2010, 07:36 PM
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#10
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
I assumed he's either using hyperbole, or he's using karmagen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Aug 23 2010, 07:42 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 516 Joined: 22-July 10 From: Detroit Member No.: 18,843 |
I assumed he's either using hyperbole, or he's using karmagen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Quite a few GMs do things like "400BP + 75 karma to start" or the like. |
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Aug 23 2010, 07:59 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 572 Joined: 6-February 09 From: London Uk Member No.: 16,848 |
i think its more the conciousness not the spirit, when a mage gets possesed and does not have the ability to channel rather then be a meat puppet his conciousness is supressed as if he was knocked out in effect. If a mage fails a drain test and gets knocked out his spell automatically fails. Logic would say a similar state such as the possession would cause things he was concentrating on to fall apart as he is no longer active in any true sense.
but this is of course only my opinion, a fairly balanced and reasoned one I hope though |
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Aug 23 2010, 08:03 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 5-March 09 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 16,946 |
Okay. I looked at channeling (SM p 54), and found the following:
QUOTE Through channeling, a magician who was willingly possessed can find a balance between the two minds (the spirit’s and her own) occupying her body and achieve greater control. The Channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power (see p. 101). Control is still shared, however, and the magician is unable to tap the possessing spirit’s powers without expending a service. So it seems like under normal possession rules, we have this two headed monster, where the spirit head controls the boosted physical attributes, the mental attributes, and the special attributes, while the other (vessel head) has his mind, the "impotent witness", which cannot access or control any of the above-mentioned. Channeling seems like it brings together these two heads, so that the channeling vessel head can offer it's skills and access it's own Magic/Edge. I'm still wondering why the un-channeled vessel head couldn't continue to concentrate on the sustained spell "in the state it was in when the possession began", with perhaps a concentration check. @lansdren I like the drain comparison, but if the consciousness is suppressed, it seems like self-possession is much less useful. I was under the impression the magician in this cases "is fully aware of what the spirit is doing, and is still able to give it commands and directions" (SM p103), so I saw the consciousness as still awake and aware, so to speak. Thanks again for the discussion. |
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Aug 24 2010, 05:56 AM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
I assumed he's either using hyperbole, or he's using karmagen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yeah, using karmagen, its just so much better. Removes all the chargen twinkery caused by the differentiating cost between chargen and progressing character, which is the reason i cant for the live of me understand those GM who do BP+some karma, thats bound to cause the worst possible kind of twinkery. |
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Aug 24 2010, 12:58 PM
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#15
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Well, karmagen has plenty of its own twinkery. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Aug 29 2010, 01:27 AM
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#16
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
Yeah, using karmagen, its just so much better. Removes all the chargen twinkery caused by the differentiating cost between chargen and progressing character, which is the reason i cant for the live of me understand those GM who do BP+some karma, thats bound to cause the worst possible kind of twinkery. Have not had any real issues myself. BP + Karma generally works out okay... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) |
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