Some alternate weapons rules, More bang Options

[maeel]

Hey there dumpshockers,

i have been thinking a lot about the shadowrun rules for firearms.

Mainly i found the recoil rules weird plus the cyclic firing rate for full auto is ridicously low.

I also read some alternate rules (rayguns i think), cool stuff to read but 3rd edition and very complex.

So i cooked up some stuff myself, i hope you guys like it and dont flame too much.

Obsolete! look here


Firing modes:

SS: remains the same
SA: remains the same
BF: short bursts increase the base damage of a weapon by 50% (multiply base damage by 1.5 round up)
long bursts: removed

Full auto: firing a weapon in full auto is a complex action and uses up to 40 rounds, every 2 rounds fired equal 1 dice, this pool is divided by the range modifier (regardless of aiming aids) and then added to the test. Up to 4 targets can be engaged at the same time if they are within 1 meter of each other, but the successes of the test have to be split up evenly among the targets(round down).

Suppressive Fire: remains almost the same except that 40 rounds are used and an area of up to 40 meters width and 2 meters height is covered. The result of the number of bullets divided by the meters width is the threshold for the dodge test. Any successes generated by the attacker increase the DV by 1 per two net hits.


Recoil: Recoil is generated every time a weapon is fired. This means that pulling the trigger once will generate a recoil of 1. So a streetsam who fires his weapon 5 times during thecombat turn, will have to deal with -4 recoil when he fires the weapon the fifth time.

Heavy Weapons: Heavy Weapons like Miniguns and HMGs produce more recoil than normal weapons, therefore the recoil for bursts is doubled, so is the range modifier for calculating the dice in full auto mode.

Maximum Fire Rate: A normal weapon cannot fire more than 40 rounds per Initiative pass

Range modifier table:
short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long : -3W6
extreme : -4W6


Recoilmods:
The following recoil modifications and accessories need changes due to the recoil rules change.

Heavy barrel: first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation they offer one additional dice.

Foregrip: A foregrip helps holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.

Bipod: When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.
Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.

Stock: a rigid or employed folding stock stabilizes the weapon against the shooter shoulder, it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.

Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation.

Comments and suggestions appreciated

[StealthSigma]

CODE

Recoil: Recoil is generated every time a weapon is fired. This means that pulling the trigger once will generate a recoil of 1. So a streetsam who fires his weapon 5 times during the initiative pass, will have to deal with -4 recoil when he fires the weapon the fifth time.

Comments and suggestions appreciated

That is essentially how recoil works in the current system. You get -1 recoil for every bullet fired for the initiative pass.

x2 Semi-auto? 2 bullets
0 Recoil, -1 Recoil
x2 Short burst? 6 bullets
-2 Recoil, -5 Recoil
Short/Long Burst? 9 bullets
-2 Recoil, -8 Recoil
Full Burst? 10 bullets
-9 Recoil

It resets each initiative pass. I'm not sure how your rule has changed anything except for clarify any potential ambiguity, unless you're suggesting the two short burst in an initiative pass would generate -1 Recoil/-2 Recoil.

[maeel]

That is essentially how recoil works in the current system. You get -1 recoil for every bullet fired for the initiative pass.

x2 Semi-auto? 2 bullets
0 Recoil, -1 Recoil
x2 Short burst? 6 bullets
-2 Recoil, -5 Recoil
Short/Long Burst? 9 bullets
-2 Recoil, -8 Recoil
Full Burst? 10 bullets
-9 Recoil

It resets each initiative pass. I'm not sure how your rule has changed anything except for clarify any potential ambiguity, unless you're suggesting the two short burst in an initiative pass would generate -1 Recoil/-2 Recoil.

if i am not mistaken recoil only accumulates per Action Phase not Initiative Pass, and yes, i meant first burst 0 recoil, second burst -1, third burst -2 recoil and so forth.

[Yerameyahu]

By changing mods to +DP instead, isn't it just making the problem worse? At least RC was self-limiting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

At first glance, it looks complicated, in the way that could slow down the game. Good that you're making an effort, though. Playtest it on guinea pigs and let us know?

[Mooncrow]

if i am not mistaken recoil only accumulates per Action Phase not Initiative Pass, and yes, i meant first burst 0 recoil, second burst -1, third burst -2 recoil and so forth.

Functionally, Action Phase and Initiative Pass mean the same thing. Or rather, you get one Action Phase per Initiative Pass.

[maeel]

By changing mods to +DP instead, isn't it just making the problem worse? At least RC was self-limiting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

At first glance, it looks complicated, in the way that could slow down the game. Good that you're making an effort, though. Playtest it on guinea pigs and let us know?

well the reason for this was basically that an unmodded assault rifle like an AK right is totally unusable, if you wanna do full auto mayhem you need maxed out recoil compensation... that kinda sucks imo.

i cant playtest it, since i recently moved to a, well, lets call it a village, not much running going on here...

[maeel]

Functionally, Action Phase and Initiative Pass mean the same thing. Or rather, you get one Action Phase per Initiative Pass.

oh hell then i meant combat turn instead of initiative pass/action phase!

i'll edit it..

[Doc Chase]

But an AK on rock'n'roll is supposed to be near unusable. You're not throwing 30 rounds into a bullseye downrange with an off-the-shelf rifle.

[sabs]

He has a point the HK 98
6p -1 SA/BF/FA - 38©

If you have your typical thug ganger 3 agility, 3 automatics skill would have 6 dice.
If he does a FA narrow he would have -3 dice to hit with. Before other modifiers.
Even if all he does is a narrow BF that's still leaving him with 3 dice to try and hit someone. That's pretty pathetic.

[Mooncrow]

He has a point the HK 98
6p -1 SA/BF/FA - 38©

If you have your typical thug ganger 3 agility, 3 automatics skill would have 6 dice.
If he does a FA narrow he would have -3 dice to hit with. Before other modifiers.
Even if all he does is a narrow BF that's still leaving him with 3 dice to try and hit someone. That's pretty pathetic.

Actually, that's pretty accurate to what I've seen when even reasonably trained people try to do full auto for the first time...

[StealthSigma]

Actually, that's pretty accurate to what I've seen when even reasonably trained people try to do full auto for the first time...

Just look at Youtube videos of people firing a single shot from a gun.
Now amplify that about 10-fold to apply for full-auto.

[sabs]

for the first time..
but a ganger with a 3 skill is not "a first timer"
Rating 3: Professional
Firearms example: Regular beat cop or military grunt

Perhaps it's reasonable to think that people of that skill level don't really aim when in full auto mode. They just do suppression fire.
That gives them 6 dice to hit anyone not under cover

I guess that's reasonable.

[maeel]

But an AK on rock'n'roll is supposed to be near unusable. You're not throwing 30 rounds into a bullseye downrange with an off-the-shelf rifle.

AK on full auto 0-50 ? you are dead no matter what. besides it not like i am suggesting to automatically increase DV. you just get more dice, which can still all fail.
Plus if your target is at extreme range you get a lot less dice.

Although a minor adjustment to the range table might help:

short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long: -3W6
extreme: -4W6

With this you get at short range standard AK AR:

30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP: -1

for extreme range you would get:

30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP:-1

[Doc Chase]

Those folks are trained to fire in short bursts with rifles, longer bursts with LMG's.

Heh. Have you ever tried to fire a rifle on rock 'n roll at even short ranges? It's tougher than you think. There's a reason why it's known as 'Spray 'n Pray'.

[Mooncrow]

for the first time..
but a ganger with a 3 skill is not "a first timer"
Rating 3: Professional
Firearms example: Regular beat cop or military grunt

Perhaps it's reasonable to think that people of that skill level don't really aim when in full auto mode. They just do suppression fire.
That gives them 6 dice to hit anyone not under cover

I guess that's reasonable.

Yeah, its one of those fluff vs mechanics thing. Though, to be fair a grunt would be more likely to have automatics(assault rifle) 3(+2). But yeah, any type of professional grade gunfighter is probably going to be throwing at least 10 dice, which seems reasonable with the mechanics of full auto.

[ZeroPoint]

So I am thinking you mean Combat Turn mayhaps?

I've actually been tinkering with my own idea for similar changes, but I wan't to make them as low impact as possible (less confusing and won't break existing characters too much) so they are still in works.

Edit: Ack, i see this has been addressed. Thats what i get from trying to post while at work.

[maeel]

AK on full auto 0-50 ? you are dead no matter what. besides it not like i am suggesting to automatically increase DV. you just get more dice, which can still all fail.
Plus if your target is at extreme range you get a lot less dice.

Although a minor adjustment to the range table might help:

short : +1 1W6
medium : - 2W6
long: -3W6
extreme: -4W6

With this you get at short range standard AK AR:

30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP: -1

for extreme range you would get:

30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill + att. with DV:6P AP:-1

This example with professional level 3.

With this you get at short range standard AK AR:

30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill(+3W6) + att. (+3W6) = 22W6 DP with DV:6P AP: -1

for extreme range you would get:

30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill(+3W6) + att.(+3W6) = 5W6 DP with DV:6P AP:-1

[StealthSigma]

Yeah, its one of those fluff vs mechanics thing. Though, to be fair a grunt would be more likely to have automatics(assault rifle) 3(+2). But yeah, any type of professional grade gunfighter is probably going to be throwing at least 10 dice, which seems reasonable with the mechanics of full auto.

Mechanically, it seems that full auto on the fly is meant to be done as suppressive fire or to use wide bursts to apply the -9 penalty to the targets dodge pool, thus negating the fact that you aren't going to be able to get a lot of net hits. 3 recoil compensation is relatively easy to acquire and would make full auto usable for people with dice pools of 7 or higher. Full auto accurately (narrow bursts) seems to be more the goal of having bipods and tripods and other ways to greatly increase recoil compensation.

[Doc Chase]

This example with professional level 3.

With this you get at short range standard AK AR:

30 rounds (+15W6) + short range (+1W6) + skill(+3W6) + att. (+3W6) = 22W6 DP with DV:6P AP: -1

for extreme range you would get:

30 rounds (+ 3W6) + extreme range (- 4W6) + skill(+3W6) + att.(+3W6) = 5W6 DP with DV:6P AP:-1

Why is it +15 for the 30 rounds at short and +3 at extreme?

[StealthSigma]

Why is it +15 for the 30 rounds at short and +3 at extreme?

I'll be honest. He's confusing me and I don't get confused easily.

Namely, I have no idea what the W represents.

[Doc Chase]

I'll be honest. He's confusing me and I don't get confused easily.

Indeed. It means that ambushes automatically turn everyone to hamburger.

It just seems like trying to reinvent the wheel.

[maeel]

Why is it +15 for the 30 rounds at short and +3 at extreme?

30 rounds (1 dice per 2 rounds)= 15 dice (divided by range modifier +1 for short, -4 for extreme, we assume a positive result) 15 dice for short (15/1) 3 for extreme (15/4)

[Kruger]

AK on full auto 0-50 ? you are dead no matter what.

I've seen some awfully bad marksmen in my day. I mean, I'm not going to volunteer to test the theory, but I always wouldn't call it a sure thing.

The rifle is almost always accurate. It's the shooter who misses.

[Doc Chase]

30 rounds (1 dice per 2 rounds)= 15 dice (divided by range modifier +1 for short, -4 for extreme, we assume a positive result) 15 dice for short (15/1) 3 for extreme (15/4)

What about folks able to ignore range modifiers?

[maeel]

I've seen some awfully bad marksmen in my day. I mean, I'm not going to volunteer to test the theory, but I always wouldn't call it a sure thing.

The rifle is almost always accurate. It's the shooter who misses.

agreed, thats why i think full auto should give additional dice, depending on range, instead of an increased DV.