[X] My Assistant

[sabs]

Although Should't all Assault Rifles have 1 point of recoil compensation from a stock?
So that if you're firing it from the shoulder you have 1 RC.

mm.. a position recoil compensation.

one 1 knee = 1 rc
prone = 2rc
stabalized on something = 1rc

so lets say I had the HK 98.
I'm on one knee, my gun resting on the window sill, with the gun to my shoulder
I would get 3 rc.
Now as a Military grunt I have 3 agi, 3 skill, and 3 points of RC.
So now if I try to full Auto I have 0 dice.
But if I short burst then I have 6 dice where I might have had 4.

[maeel]

What about folks able to ignore range modifiers?

its in the original post:
they may ignore the negative dice, but the dice granted by full auto are always divided by the range modifiers.

[sabs]

agreed, thats why i think full auto should give additional dice, depending on range, instead of an increased DV.

That's what it does on wide burst, effectively (by imposing a -9 dp modifier to the defenders dodge pool).
It's the narrow burst that increases the dv.

[maeel]

Although Should't all Assault Rifles have 1 point of recoil compensation from a stock?
So that if you're firing it from the shoulder you have 1 RC.

mm.. a position recoil compensation.

one 1 knee = 1 rc
prone = 2rc
stabalized on something = 1rc

so lets say I had the HK 98.
I'm on one knee, my gun resting on the window sill, with the gun to my shoulder
I would get 3 rc.
Now as a Military grunt I have 3 agi, 3 skill, and 3 points of RC.
So now if I try to full Auto I have 0 dice.
But if I short burst then I have 6 dice where I might have had 4.

this is covered in the recoil compensation section...

[maeel]

That's what it does on wide burst, effectively (by imposing a -9 dp modifier to the defenders dodge pool).
It's the narrow burst that increases the dv.

sure, but have you ever seen somebody wide bursting IRL, plus my intention was the following: full auto at close range is absolutely lethal but pretty pointless at long ranges, the current rules make it either completly pointless (no recoil comp) or lethal at all ranges (maxed recoil comp), which is imho stupid.

[Doc Chase]

its in the original post:
they may ignore the negative dice, but the dice granted by full auto are always divided by the range modifiers.

All right, but then why would I want to do all this math in the first place?

Currently the system as it stands isn't too bad. If I want to burstfire, I have to compensate for the recoil to keep my pools. Adding more dice doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it so it's easier to get a billion successes. A pack of sprawl gangers with cheap AK's will turn any opposition to hamburger with a hail of gunfire.

[Doc Chase]

sure, but have you ever seen somebody wide bursting IRL, plus my intention was the following: full auto at close range is absolutely lethal but pretty pointless at long ranges, the current rules make it either completly pointless (no recoil comp) or lethal at all ranges (maxed recoil comp), which is imho stupid.

Yes, I have, and no, it isn't.. The rules right now are much more accurate than what you're trying to turn it into.

[maeel]

All right, but then why would I want to do all this math in the first place?

Currently the system as it stands isn't too bad. If I want to burstfire, I have to compensate for the recoil to keep my pools. Adding more dice doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it so it's easier to get a billion successes. A pack of sprawl gangers with cheap AK's will turn any opposition to hamburger with a hail of gunfire.

is it really that much math?

and yes a bunch of gangers with cheap AKs are scary, ask anyone in brazil or mexico.

[Doc Chase]

is it really that much math?

and yes a bunch of gangers with cheap AKs are scary, ask anyone in brazil or mexico.

Currently? Yes, it is.

I have to have 30 rounds divided by two to get fifteen dice divided by range plus weapon skill plus linked attribute plus dice from weapon mods and everything else.

With the current system? Skill plus attribute plus mods minus range and recoil. Done.

[maeel]

Yes, I have, and no, it isn't.. The rules right now are much more accurate than what you're trying to turn it into.

it probably depends on how you imagine wide spread, in my mind certain chuck norris flicks show up, so wide spread is something never seen IRL and i have served my time....

but those rules are merely a suggestion, you dont have to use 'em, i merely wanted to check out if there were some major flaws, lke the initiative pass thing and the range table modifer issue...

[Doc Chase]

it probably depends on how you imagine wide spread, in my mind certain chuck norris flicks show up, so wide spread is something never seen IRL and i have served my time....

but those rules are merely a suggestion, you dont have to use 'em, i merely wanted to check out if there were some major flaws, lke the initiative pass thing and the range table modifer issue...

Chuck Norris movies =/= RL. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I find the rules to be overly complicated, though they give unimaginable power to people with little to no skill and godlike dice cascading to those who do. It's my opinion that the automatics be left to those with proper training and not rely on full auto to annihilate everything in the 0-50 range. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[sabs]

is it really that much math?

and yes a bunch of gangers with cheap AKs are scary, ask anyone in brazil or mexico.

Those guys mostly use burst fire. Not full auto.
And burst Fire is only a -2 or -5 recoil depending.

[maeel]

Currently? Yes, it is.

I have to have 30 rounds divided by two to get fifteen dice divided by range plus weapon skill plus linked attribute plus dice from weapon mods and everything else.

With the current system? Skill plus attribute plus mods minus range and recoil. Done.

my system

skill + attb. + range + mods + rounds/range/2

current system

skill + attb. + range + mods ; base damage + rounds spent/ dodge pool - rounds spent

[Kruger]

Yes, I have, and no, it isn't.. The rules right now are much more accurate than what you're trying to turn it into.

No, he is right. The recoil rules don't make much sense the way they are written, and really never have. They are way more cinematic than even a remotely accurate depiction of ranged combat.

His way of doing things makes it more complicated, sure, but you can't really say it is wrong. It may just be more number crunching than you're willing to do, that's all. Some people might prefer their combat be less John Woo.

[Doc Chase]

my system

skill + attb. + range + mods + rounds/range/2

current system

skill + attb. + range + mods ; base damage + rounds spent/ dodge pool - rounds spent

So you're stating that the actual damage resistance/dodge rolls are what makes the system so complicated?

And you're also saying that people now have no chances to dodge and must soak the 22 dice your theoretical skill 3 is rolling?

[Yerameyahu]

I posted some different burst fire rules a couple months ago, if you'd like to take a look at those. They have the advantage of being much simpler, and they've playtested well (faster play, not obviously imbalanced). *shrug* I can find the link. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(If you're looking for realism, you're in the wrong place.)

[maeel]

Those guys mostly use burst fire. Not full auto.
And burst Fire is only a -2 or -5 recoil depending.

i've seen different, also the AK as such was meant to be fired full auto. the first position after safe on an AK is FA then BF and last SA.


the advantage of this system is, that

1. even cheap assault rifles become useful
2. the decisions of wide and narrow burst and their implications disappear
3. weapons dont need max recoil comp. to be usefull in full auto
4. high recoil comp. still provides benefits
5. more realism (ok,ok, debatable)

[Mooncrow]

No, he is right. The recoil rules don't make much sense the way they are written, and really never have. They are way more cinematic than even a remotely accurate depiction of ranged combat.

His way of doing things makes it more complicated, sure, but you can't really say it is wrong. It may just be more number crunching than you're willing to do, that's all. Some people might prefer their combat be less John Woo.

Of course the rules aren't terribly accurate; I don't see how going farther away from realism makes it less John Woo like though.

[Kruger]

Edit: I take it back. Don't care. Trying to rationalize SR combat mechanics makes my head hurt.

[sabs]

Why is range being counted twice?

skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2

The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)

a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.

That seems like crazy dice.

[maeel]

So you're stating that the actual damage resistance/dodge rolls are what makes the system so complicated?

And you're also saying that people now have no chances to dodge and must soak the 22 dice your theoretical skill 3 is rolling?

of course they can dodge, but the attackers action dont influence the dodge pool. your dodge pool is always the same.

it boils down to 3 calculations: how many attack dice, how many net success, damage calculation

where in the curent system you have 5: how many attack dice, how many dodge dice, how much damage, how many net success, damage calculation

[Mooncrow]

How is he going farther away from realism by increasing the penalties, or decreasing the bonuses, for burst fire at longer ranges?

By increasing the bonus at shorter ranges, where play is more likely to happen?

edit: in any case:

the advantage of this system is, that

1. even cheap assault rifles become useful
2. the decisions of wide and narrow burst and their implications disappear
3. weapons dont need max recoil comp. to be usefull in full auto
4. high recoil comp. still provides benefits
5. more realism (ok,ok, debatable)

Well, it seems to accomplish 1-4 pretty well.

[Kruger]

By increasing the bonus at shorter ranges, where play is more likely to happen?

I know I can put a lot of rounds on target firing short bursts at short range. I've seen guys who are really good shooters put an amazing number of rounds on target at short range.

Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.

[Doc Chase]

of course they can dodge, but the attackers action dont influence the dodge pool. your dodge pool is always the same.

it boils down to 3 calculations: how many attack dice, how many net success, damage calculation

where in the curent system you have 5: how many attack dice, how many dodge dice, how much damage, how many net success, damage calculation

Save that 'how many attack dice' has subsequent calculations, namely rounds fired / 2 / range.

Plus the insane bonuses you give for shorter ranges has turned combat into "I throw my dice at you."

I feel that 'More damage or less dodge' is not that complicated a concept, as selecting one locks in both damage and dodge pool.

[maeel]

Why is range being counted twice?

skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2

The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)

a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.

That seems like crazy dice.

first of all you forgot to divide the rounds fired by 2 (2 rounds = 1 Dice), secondly i also added an slightly altered range modifier table (yes you are right i should put it in the first post).

actually you calculated correct..