[X] My Assistant

[Doc Chase]

first of all you forgot to divide the rounds fired by 2 (2 rounds = 1 Dice), secondly i also added an slightly altered range modifier table (yes you are right i should put it in the first post).

Looks like he divided it fine to me, otherwise it would've been 46 dice and not 26.

[Mooncrow]

I know I can put a lot of rounds on target firing short bursts at short range. I've seen guys who are really good shooters put an amazing number of rounds on target at short range.

Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.

With good RC, I can too. With no recoil comp (no stock, no tripod, etc), it takes an amazing shooter to put a round past the first three in anything he's trying to shoot at.

[maeel]

Looks like he divided it fine to me, otherwise it would've been 46 dice and not 26.

true, i guess he didnt divide by range then.

[sabs]

I know I can put a lot of rounds on target firing short bursts at short range. I've seen guys who are really good shooters put an amazing number of rounds on target at short range.

Dunno. I guess it comes down to the fact that 4e's skill+attribute+x dice w/ fixed Target Number is just a shitty mechanic for combat with the damage rules as written.

The real problem is that what the difference between a 3 skill and a 7 skill is not correctly reflected in the dicepools and bell curve.
Perhaps we need a max hits = skill thing, or some other mechanic to imprve the diff between skill stats

[Doc Chase]

With good RC, I can too. With no recoil comp (no stock, no tripod, etc), it takes an amazing shooter to put a round past the first three in anything he's trying to shoot at.

Yeah, but bursting is a lot easier on the recoil than full auto, which is the source of my discomfort with this whole system. Police/military train to fire short bursts to maximize accuracy and stopping power - not a lot of folks get up after three rounds to center mass delivered at the same time. Full auto puts a lot of lead downrange, but after the fifth round leaves the chamber your barrel is already tracking way up and the rest of the time is overcompensating for barrel jump.

[sabs]

first of all you forgot to divide the rounds fired by 2 (2 rounds = 1 Dice), secondly i also added an slightly altered range modifier table (yes you are right i should put it in the first post).

40 / 2 = 20 in my math classes?
and I did divide by range
40 / 2 / 1 (short range) still equal to 20

What I missed on the extreme range example was

40 / 2 / 4 = 5 -4 = 1, so it's 7 dice, not 11. And it's still 11 dice if I have any kind of range ignorers like mag vision.

[Doc Chase]

true, i guess he didnt divide by range then.

No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.

Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.

Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.

[Mooncrow]

Yeah, but bursting is a lot easier on the recoil than full auto, which is the source of my discomfort with this whole system. Police/military train to fire short bursts to maximize accuracy and stopping power - not a lot of folks get up after three rounds to center mass delivered at the same time. Full auto puts a lot of lead downrange, but after the fifth round leaves the chamber your barrel is already tracking way up and the rest of the time is overcompensating for barrel jump.

That's what I was saying?

[Doc Chase]

That's what I was saying?

No, that's what *I* was saying. See, it says my name there in the quote box and everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.

Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.

Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.

Only because Satellite weaponry has a Pilot 8, Targeting 8, OrbitalLaser AutosoftL: 3, for something like 19 dice to shoot for you. And that's still less dice than what he's proposing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[maeel]

No, he still divided by range - short range divides by one, extreme by four just as you stated.

Which leaves a stupid amount of dice at short, and slightly lesser stupid amount of dice at extreme.

Cripes, they may be easier to use than a sword or bow, but they still aren't point and click. Satellite-based weaponry, now that's point and click.

yeah i realized that actually i made a mistake.

if the amount of dice is really worrying you, you could always rule that 3 rounds equal one dice.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* I'm still more concerned that you can now use RC mods to get +6 DP for *single* shots.

[Kruger]

No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters put full auto on a target at 25m or so and nail most of the shots. But, at the same time, none of them would even think of trying the same thing at 200m. Ranged combat is incredibly hard to model in a role playing game because of the amount of calculations. 93 Games's Reflex System makes the best playable attempt at it I've seen and I'd be curious if anyone knows better ones. But even Reflex has a fair number of calculations and isn't perfect. Shadowrun is just massively imperfect. I think that may be that maeel is just trying to fix an unfixable system. But all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong when he said that the range modifiers maeel was suggesting didn't make sense.

[maeel]

*shrug* I'm still more concerned that you can now use RC mods to get +6 DP for *single* shots.

that would be a SA longarm weapon with stock, tripod and heavy barrel at point blank range. Sounds like a glass cannon...

[Doc Chase]

yeah i realized that actually i made a mistake.

if the amount of dice is really worrying you, you could always rule that 3 rounds equal one dice.

40/3=13.3, so we'll call it 13.

SK+A of 6 + 13 dice at short is ninteen dice, 13/4 is 3.25 so we'll call it 3, which means nine dice at extreme range if he's ignoring the modifier (which ain't tough to do).

Nine dice on an unmodded AK to hit something almost a klick away is still...off.

[Mooncrow]

No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters put full auto on a target at 25m or so and nail most of the shots. But, at the same time, none of them would even think of trying the same thing at 200m. Ranged combat is incredibly hard to model in a role playing game because of the amount of calculations. 93 Games's Reflex System makes the best playable attempt at it I've seen and I'd be curious if anyone knows better ones. But even Reflex has a fair number of calculations and isn't perfect. Shadowrun is just massively imperfect. I think that may be that maeel is just trying to fix an unfixable system. But all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong when he said that the range modifiers maeel was suggesting didn't make sense.

I guess we're arguing different parts of the equation then. I don't have problems with making full auto worse at farther ranges; I do have a problem with making it better at short. I mean, I agree that there are some people that can do amazing things at short range. But the average ganger certainly can't

[Doc Chase]

No, what I'm saying is that I've seen guys who are really good shooters

Right there. Really good shooters. This system and the range modifiers put an amount of dice on the range scales that borders on retarded, and that's for an average joe. I've got decent training, enough to probably be able to qualify at a police academy and I'm not gonna put most shots on a target at 25 rockin' and a rollin'. Under this system, not only would I be able to rock 'n roll with no problems, I would put damn near 100% of the shots I fire on an unmodified AK (which has horrible muzzle climb) on a target at 50 meters (19 dice) and about 70% on target at 100 meters (12 dice).

all I was originally saying is that Doc Chase was wrong

I don't like you anymore. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[maeel]

Why is range being counted twice?

skill + attb + range + mods + rounds/range/2

The current system is:
skill + attb + mods + Fire Mode - recoil; base damage + hits + Fire Mode (if narrow burst), defense = attb + skill + mods - Fire Mode(if wide burst)

a Full 40 round burst:
3 + 3 + 20 = 26 dice at short range with a 6 DV.
even at extreme range
3+3+5=11 dice.

That seems like crazy dice.

under the current system you would have:

3 + 3 + (-9) at 15 DV for short

and

3 + 3 + (-9) + (-3) at 15 DV


but lets calculate that for the rule 3 rounds = 1dice:

3 + 3 + 1 + 13 = 17 at DV 6 for short

3 + 3 + (-4) + 3 = 5 at DV for extreme

maybe thats better

[Yerameyahu]

You mean, sounds like a steel cannon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can't require PB range, or it's impossible to do anything *without* Full Auto.

Did you take into account the use of Edge?

[Kruger]

I don't like you anymore. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

You weren't totally wrong. I don't know or care enough about 4e off the top of my head to argue the total mechanic. You are probably right that his rules don't work. I was just referring to his scalable bonuses/penalties at range. In my experience, there should be nothing except penalties at long range, heh. I don't care how many rounds you put downrange at Extreme. Sure, I've hit targets at 1800m with a burst from a .50 before, and pretty consistently. But those targets also weren't moving and I had the benefit of a tripod mount and a known distance to set the sights at.

Like I said, 4e's mechanics are just too broken for combat and damage calculation as written to try and modify them.

[maeel]

You mean, sounds like a steel cannon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can't require PB range, or it's impossible to do anything *without* Full Auto.

Did you take into account the use of Edge?

I dont understand the PB part.

And no, i didnt consider edge

[Doc Chase]

You weren't totally wrong. I don't know or care enough about 4e off the top of my head to argue the total mechanic. You are probably right that his rules don't work. I was just referring to his scalable bonuses/penalties at range. In my experience, there should be nothing except penalties at long range, heh. I don't care how many rounds you put downrange at Extreme. Sure, I've hit targets at 1800m with a burst from a .50 before, and pretty consistently. But those targets also weren't moving and I had the benefit of a tripod mount and a known distance to set the sights at.

Like I said, 4e's mechanics are just too broken for combat and damage calculation as written to try and modify them.

You still broke my heart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

But...eh, the long range stuff isn't as bad. I can't get over the cascade at short. It's akin to my players literally taking 30 dice and throwing them at me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

@Maeel: he means you're forcing point-blank ranges for semiautomatic weapons, or you're stacking recoil comp on weapons that don't need it to get extra dice.

[StealthSigma]

that would be a SA longarm weapon with stock, tripod and heavy barrel at point blank range. Sounds like a glass cannon...

Presumably, recoil compensation for most things is now a dice pool bonus and you're now giving a recoil bonus to suppressors.

The Barrett Model 121 comes stock with a suppressor, a bipod, and a smartgun system.

Keep the suppressor. (1 recoil compensation)
Get rid of the bipod in favor of an auto-adjusting weight. (2 recoil compensation)
Put a shock pad on the weapon. (1 recoil compensation)
Add electronic firing. (1 recoil compensation)
Make it a heavy barrel. (1 recoil compensation)
Add recoil compensation as normal for strength. (so now strength is adding to dice pools for attacks)

5 Longarms
9 Agility
6 Strength
Reflex Recorder
Smartgun
Specialization
Tacnet (+3)
Synch Genetech
7 points of recoil compensation

Total dice pool? 31 dice on a 9P -4AP weapon BEFORE ammunition. Call shot with 27 dice left. Total: 22P -4AP + Ammunition.

Beyond that, since high strength values are now adding to attack rolls for ranged attacks, that widens the gap between melee and ranged combat.

[maeel]

You still broke my heart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

But...eh, the long range stuff isn't as bad. I can't get over the cascade at short. It's akin to my players literally taking 30 dice and throwing them at me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

@Maeel: he means you're forcing point-blank ranges for semiautomatic weapons, or you're stacking recoil comp on weapons that don't need it to get extra dice.

actually i changed some of the recoil mods so that they dont provide recoil compensation but extra dice instead.

now i have come up with an alternate idea,brb...

[Yerameyahu]

… We know. That's the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You turned recoil *compensators* into generic dice-adders; more smartlinks.