[X] My Assistant

[StealthSigma]

The real problem is that what the difference between a 3 skill and a 7 skill is not correctly reflected in the dicepools and bell curve.
Perhaps we need a max hits = skill thing, or some other mechanic to imprve the diff between skill stats

It's a poor rule, in my opinion, for combat tests. For the most part it will cause combat to become excessively lethal or make it excessively difficult to even shoot someone. Rather, combat becomes even more one sided unless weapon skills roughly match dodge skills and the pool isn't so large that you're guaranteed to get your cap every time.

[Kruger]

Right off the bat, you know that any modern combat system that requires a dodge mechanic is broken, heh. You don't dodge incoming fire. You just try and make sure that the other guy has an even harder time hitting you than he would normally.

[maeel]

Presumably, recoil compensation for most things is now a dice pool bonus and you're now giving a recoil bonus to suppressors.

The Barrett Model 121 comes stock with a suppressor, a bipod, and a smartgun system.

Keep the suppressor. (1 recoil compensation)
Get rid of the bipod in favor of an auto-adjusting weight. (2 recoil compensation)
Put a shock pad on the weapon. (1 recoil compensation)
Add electronic firing. (1 recoil compensation)
Make it a heavy barrel. (1 recoil compensation)
Add recoil compensation as normal for strength. (so now strength is adding to dice pools for attacks)

5 Longarms
9 Agility
6 Strength
Reflex Recorder
Smartgun
Specialization
Tacnet (+3)
Synch Genetech
7 points of recoil compensation

Total dice pool? 31 dice on a 9P -4AP weapon BEFORE ammunition. Call shot with 27 dice left. Total: 22P -4AP + Ammunition.

Beyond that, since high strength values are now adding to attack rolls for ranged attacks, that widens the gap between melee and ranged combat.

nope 1 point recoil compensation is not + 1 dice. i changed some recoil mods from providing recoil compensation to providing dice, the idea is that in IRL sniper rifles almost always have bipods, and they dont have it for recoil compensation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[maeel]

… We know. That's the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You turned recoil *compensators* into generic dice-adders; more smartlinks.

only some of them and i always explained why....

[Yerameyahu]

So the solution is to make them even more sniper-y? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In my games, you have to fire guns properly. AR in one hand has a penalty (optional rule in Arsenal); sniper rifle unbraced has a penalty (house rule by extension); heavy weapons unbraced causes Stun damage (unless you're huge; optional rule in Arsenal). I think this is a better and more rules-consistent way of addressing your very valid point.

I know you explained why, but the issue still stands. I'm saying that explanation isn't good enough for making *reactive*, penalty-limiting mods into *proactive*, DP-buffing mods.

[sabs]

Right off the bat, you know that any modern combat system that requires a dodge mechanic is broken, heh. You don't dodge incoming fire. You just try and make sure that the other guy has an even harder time hitting you than he would normally.

There should be evasive maneuvers perhaps.
A true bad-ass could in melee/unarmed range do horrible things to someone with a gun, especially one not trained in melee/unarmed as well.

The Dodge skill doesn't really make sense in dealing with firearms. But there you have it.

Evasive Maneuvers -2 dp
Diving for Cover: Reaction+appropriate athletics roll opposed their reaction+firearms skill net hit = you get the cover available (partial, full, none if you're in the middle of an empty room)
Gymnastics Dodging: net hits -DP, Max = Gymnastics Rating
Full Defense: -1 DP per IP given up for evasive maneuvers. (You move fast, you're hard to track)

So lets say I'm a Street Sam with 3ip, facing a room full of ganger death.
I go evasive maneuvers, I go full defense and dedicate 2 of my 3 IP for evading. Anyone trying to hit me has a -4DP

Either I'm in heavy armor and my plan is to take the hits and shoot back, or I'm planning on going first, and killing the lot of them before they get to shoot at me.

That seems fair (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

nope 1 point recoil compensation is not + 1 dice. i changed some recoil mods from providing recoil compensation to providing dice, the idea is that in IRL sniper rifles almost always have bipods, and they dont have it for recoil compensation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, yes it is according to what you wrote, except for one recoil compensator.

Heavy barrel: first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation they offer one additional dice.

1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice

Foregrip: A foregrip helps holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.

1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice

Bipod: When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.

2 recoil compensation now equals +2 dice

Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.

6 recoil compensation now equals +3 dice

Stock: a rigid or employed folding stock stabilizes the weapon against the shooter shoulder, it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.

1 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice

Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation.

0 recoil compensation now equals +1 dice

--

Beyond that, each attack in the combat turn automatically adds a cumulative -1 dice pool recoil modifier. Either normal recoil compensation applies and all the other modifications that affect that still affect that, or you have a situation where the dual-wielding gunfu phys adept with 4 IPs is eating a -8 recoil modifier on each gun for a -16 for the last pair of shots. Regardless, from your list of recoil compensators that give bonus dice instead, I can +4 dice without using a bipod.

But lets look at a 3agi 3pistol ganger that's hopped up on some drugs that give him an extra initiative pass. He's thinking he's badass and is gunfuing it up. His first attack is at 1 dice / 1 dice (-1 recoil on each weapon plus -2 from using an off-hand weapon since he isn't ambidextrous). He could fire 6 more shots and none of them have a chance in hell of hitting. Let's say the same ganger isn't dual wielding. His first attack will be at 5 dice, and his last attack at 2 dice.

You've tried to make full auto more useful and in turn significantly hurt other methods of firearm combat.

[maeel]

ok new try:

CODE

Firing modes:

SS: remains the same
SA: remains the same
BF: short bursts increase the base damage of a weapon by 50% (multiply base damage by 1.5 round up)
long bursts: removed

Full auto: firing a weapon in full auto is a complex action and uses up to 40 rounds, every 3 rounds fired equal +1DV. Up to 4 targets can be engaged at the same time if they are within 1 meter of each other, but the successes of the test have to be split up evenly among the targets(round down).  A full burst generates a recoil of -3 multiplied by range modifier.
Recoil compensation applies.

Suppressive Fire: remains almost the same except that 40 rounds are used and an area of up to 40 meters width and 2 meters height is covered. The result of the number of bullets divided by the meters width is the threshold for the dodge test.   Any successes generated by the attacker increase the DV by 1 per two net hits.


Range modifier table:
short      : +1 1W6
medium  : - 2W6
long       : -3W6
extreme : -4W6

Recoilmods:
The following recoil modifications and accessories have changed.

Heavy barrel:  first off, three capacity slots is a bit much, one capacity slot seems more reasonable, secondly heavy barrels increase accuracy by reducing the trembling of the barrel, when a shot is fired, hence instead of one point of recoil compensation the offer one additional dice.
Sniper rifles already have heavy barrels installed by default and do not get additional benefits.

Foregrip:  A foregrip helps  holding a rifle, making it easier to aim, therefor it provides 1 dice instead of one point of recoil compensation.

Bipod:  When braced a bipod makes a weapon more stable and this way easier to aim, it provides 2 dice instead of two points of recoil compensation.
Tripod: like bipod but provides 3 dice and eliminates the heavy weapons recoil penalty for heavy weapons.


Silencer: Sound suppressors provide 1 point of recoil compensation

Maximum Fire Rate:  A normal weapon cannot fire more than 40 rounds per Combat turn.

[Yerameyahu]

Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G17/G18.

I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G22/G23.

I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Technically Machine pistols are not bigger than heavy pistols (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so they don't get the -3

As for SMG's. The Masad uses a stock on their Uzis when they're trying to actually be able to hit people (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Doc Chase]

It also further forces ranges to short.

A 40 round full auto gives:
3 recoil at short
6 at medium
9 at long
12 at extreme.

All right.

So our average joe with 6 dice now has 3 dice to fire at short with a +13DV with an unmodified rifle, and zero dice with a SMG (which is built for close-quarters combat).

[Yerameyahu]

sabs, SR4A p311 says that Machine Pistols are bigger than Heavy Pistols, which are bigger than Light Pistols.

I'm not saying a stock isn't a good idea, which is why they provide RC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[maeel]

It also further forces ranges to short.

A 40 round full auto gives:
3 recoil at short
6 at medium
9 at long
12 at extreme.

All right.

So our average joe with 6 dice now has 3 dice to fire at short with a +13DV with an unmodified rifle, and zero dice with a SMG (which is built for close-quarters combat).

Is that a "yes thats better??" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[maeel]

Now machine pistols and SMGs get a crippling -3 for not having a stock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Some machine pistols are nearly identical to heavy/light pistols, like the M92/M93R or the G17/G18.

I'm not trying to dog you, just pointing issues to help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

wuff, i know, wuff

[maeel]

i removed the stock section, so is everybody happy now?

[Doc Chase]

Is that a "yes thats better??" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.

Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.

[sabs]

It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.

Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.

What he drops his current assault rifle and picks up his second one slung over the other shoulder and fires another 40 bullets.

[maeel]

It solves the dice cascade, but more or less guarantees a hit is pretty dooming and guarantees a reload for every simple action after the first.

Well, and nothing for the sammie to do after that first IP since he came up against the maximum rounds fired.

well thats actually intentional, plus the sammie could change clip, throw a grenade, maneuver, whatever.....

[Doc Chase]

well thats actually intentional, plus the sammie could change clip, throw a grenade, maneuver, whatever.....

Except if he's got 3 IP's, he spends a Simple to reload and now has the rest of that pass and the next to twiddle his thumbs. Very quickly, as he's fast.

I like the turn bullet cap, but I'd say if you want to keep it then I'd make the full auto take the entire Combat Turn. That leaves the focus on short bursts unless he's got four guys or a heavily armored mook to drop.

[sabs]

If Full Auto took a full round, I'd be okay with it being overpowered just a little.

Of course, this means Lonestar can use full auto. Ouch.
Cover is your friend.

[StealthSigma]

If Full Auto took a full round, I'd be okay with it being overpowered just a little.

I'm not. It makes extra IPs fairly pointless for the gunner.

[maeel]

See the original idea i had, was to limit all actions to two simple action per action phase or one complex action per combat turn, that would also limit those pesky mages...

so, yeah with pleasure!

on the other hand, if your AK features a drum, you use 2IPs for 2 20 round full bursts doing 12DV each...

[Doc Chase]

I'm not. It makes extra IPs fairly pointless for the gunner.

Otherwise he has the capability of firing 120 rounds downrange in three seconds, which I don't think even an HVAR is capable of.

[sabs]

Nah.
The Extra IP gunner doesn't full auto.

he does 4 short bursts.
Which do you prefer:

1 full turn action at skill+attrb+20/range+range+mods?
call it 36 some odd dice at DV 6?
effictive dv is going to be 12 - 3 or 4. So dv of 14 roughly.
or, 4 actions
skill+attrb+3/range+range+mods
call it 20 dice at dv 9?
effective dv being ~2 or 3 + 9 so 11 or 12.
If you're willing to take the dicepool modifiers for doing two burst fires a round.
You could be throwing 8 dv 9 attacks a round,c ompaerd to the one dv ~14

Only sadness is.. your 5 agility 3 dodge face is gonna die.
Heck, my Troll monstrosity might actually die
6 agility+5 gymnastics+1 skill recorder+1 neo-eop+1synthcardium I'm only throwing together 15 dice or so for dodging.
He's got 12 net hits, I have 5, I drop him down to 13dv. Now, I have 18 points of armor, so it's all stun. (thank god)
18 armor + 9 body + 3 from bonelacing. 30 dice to soak, I soak 10, so I take 3dv. My platetelet factory turns those 3dv into 2dv and my trauma dampener turns that into 1dv. Go go munchkin Troll.

But that's a troll with orthoskin, bone lacing, trauma dampeners, platelet factory, form fitting full body armor, a chameleon suit on top of that, gel packs and a full set of PPP gear.

[StealthSigma]

Heck, my Troll monstrosity might actually die

The reason god invented the Barrett Model 121 and APDS ammo.