Stick n Shock rounds are inadvisable, Bombs frequently use electric triggers. Options

[Simon Kerimov]

People argue as to whether or not police and security forces should be loading SnS rounds as standard gear. The argument is that a tiny taser like this is overpowered and will take Shadowrunners down for the count every time.

They can't.

As police or security forces, their interest is to protect their clients' interests, which includes the general buildings they work out of. Shadowrunners are a threat to that, and frequently carry explosives but are too cheap to shell out for non-conductive armor. The risk of this happening is more than enough to cause them to load rounds that don't explode, as normal ammunition won't set off plastic dynamite.

Prisons will use SnS as standard gear, and military bases may as well, but anyone else is contractually obligated not to.

[Critias]

Well, that's one way of looking at it, I guess.

[Yerameyahu]

Nah.

[Badmoodguy88]

Plausible fluff if you also make it clear that anyone carrying unprotected plastic explosives will blow up when hit with enough electricity.

[Yerameyahu]

Plausibility depends very much on the explosives. Plastic, no. Maybe if they had black powder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I guess it's a possible house rule, albeit a very weird one. Do shadowrunners really even carry 'raw' explosives all that much?

[Simon Kerimov]

$imon$ez:
Arsenal p89
“Shadowrunners might be understandably nervous about bullets impacting on their explosives. Luckily, this rarely causes explosives to detonate if regular ammo is used. With explosive and EX-explosive rounds, though, the rules for sympathetic detonation (p. 90) should be used if the gamemaster decides a bullet strikes an explosive charge. Tracer rounds can ignite fire-sensitive explosives in a similar way, while both stick-n-shock rounds and taser darts hitting an electrical detonator or circuit will set it off instantly."
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--

There are a number of references in the "Things I can't do in Shadowrun Anymore" that make me think a number of runners do carry explosives regularly. A half kilo of cutting charges can do some amazing things if it doesn't detonate inside your load-out vest.

[Sengir]

1.) You don't carry explosives with the detonators in place. Besides safety reasons you often don't know where to put the detonator until the charge is placed and tamped.
2.) So let's suppose the charges the runners are carrying loosely with them go off. The result will be a bloody carnage and the area will require some renovation, but unless America's love for drywall has led to corp HQs being built from that stuff (or the runners were carrying a literal truckload) the building should remain sound. Bringing down a building, or at least causing enough structural damage so that it has to be brought down, requires more than a few semtex packs loosely placed in a random corridor.

[Badmoodguy88]

What you say is very true but it could still work as plausible fluff. What is in regulations does not always make sense.

[Ascalaphus]

Tasers are legal to own and carry for civilians. Runners that carry munitions that'll explode if they get in a scuffle with common people are very, very stupid.

[suoq]

I don't understand why the stick-n-shock would set off explosive.

A blasting cap requires .5 (cheap) to 1.5 (military) amps to blow. The amps in a military blasting charge should kill a human.

A taser should not be delivering more than .004 amps. A violet wand is usually less than .001 amps. My violet wand cranked up will still arc over 1/4" and hurt like a mother. I don't want to think about my violet wand putting out .005 amps. I really don't. (I've never played with or been hit by a taser. I don't really have any desire to.)

So the proposed regulation says "don't use a .005 amp taser because it might set off explosives that need .5 amps". That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Edit: For purposes of this discussion, a taser, a violet wand, and a tesla coil are all basically the same thing. LOTS of voltage, very little current. A blasting cap requires a good chunk of current.

Edit: I'd like to add http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2005/08-Au...BO-00873949.htm which has an interesting spec regarding how much current.

TEN (10) M6 BLASTING CAPS CONNECTED IN SERIES THROUGH FULL LENGTHS OF THEIR LEADS SHALL BE CAPABLE OF BEING INITIATED BY THE APPLICATION OF A CURRENT OF 1.50 TO 1.51 AMPERES FOR A TIME OF 1.5 TO 1.6 MILLISECONDS. FIFTY (50) M6 BLASTING CAPS CONNECTED IN SERIES THROUGH FULL LENGTHS OF THEIR LEADS SHALL BE CAPABLE OF BEING INITIATED BY THE APPLICATION OF A CURRENT OF 1.50 TO 1.51 AMPERES FOR A TIME OF 1.5 TO 1.6 MILLISECONDS. M6 CAPS SHALL NOT BE INITIATED WITH AN ELECTRIC CURRENT OF 200 TO 210 MILLIAMPERES FOR THE DURATION OF 5 SECONDS.

[Sengir]

I don't understand why the stick-n-shock would set off explosive.

A blasting cap requires .5 (cheap) to 1.5 (military) amps to blow. The amps in a military blasting charge should kill a human.

Remember that Shadowrun "blasting caps" are more electronic than electric, complete with wireless connection...yet another reason to keep the things seperate from the actual explosives.

[Yerameyahu]

That doesn't seem like a very convincing reason, Sengir, but you're dead on about the second part: it's the detonators that blow, not the explosives. Also, it's direct hits; at the very least, your bombs are in a pocket or something, which means no direct hits, period.

[tagz]

I don't understand why the stick-n-shock would set off explosive.

A blasting cap requires .5 (cheap) to 1.5 (military) amps to blow. The amps in a military blasting charge should kill a human.

A taser should not be delivering more than .004 amps. A violet wand is usually less than .001 amps. My violet wand cranked up will still arc over 1/4" and hurt like a mother. I don't want to think about my violet wand putting out .005 amps. I really don't. (I've never played with or been hit by a taser. I don't really have any desire to.)

So the proposed regulation says "don't use a .005 amp taser because it might set off explosives that need .5 amps". That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Edit: For purposes of this discussion, a taser, a violet wand, and a tesla coil are all basically the same thing. LOTS of voltage, very little current. A blasting cap requires a good chunk of current.

Edit: I'd like to add http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2005/08-Au...BO-00873949.htm which has an interesting spec regarding how much current.

I work with electricity on a daily basis. While what you say about the current usage of those devices is true, Amperage is not controlled like that.

A high voltage device still has the potential for high amperage if it encounters low resistance. The average resistance of a human being is anywhere between 1000Ω and 100,000Ω depending on circumstances and body chemistry. The resistivity of copper is (20 °C) 16.78 nΩ·m, making it the second most conductive metal. A high voltage source that finds such a low resistance path to ground will immediately create a extremely powerful current. Obviously, a taser will have an overcurrent protective device such as fuse or trip breaker, but it will not cut the current until it already has exceeded it's rating, be that by .5Amps or 100Amps.

What does that mean? That yes, it's possible for a taser to produce enough amperage for a moment to set off detonation charges.

Is this likely? Not in normal circumstances, extremely unlikely. But, when you throw in cyberlimbs and wires running through body... the likelyhood increases. At least enough that it may have happened once and prompted some politically motivated, reflexive law to a media hyped scenario.

[suoq]

What does that mean? That yes, it's possible for a taser to produce enough amperage for a moment to set off detonation charges.

Is this likely? Not in normal circumstances, extremely unlikely. But, when you throw in cyberlimbs and wires running through body... the likelyhood increases. At least enough that it may have happened once and prompted some politically motivated, reflexive law to a media hyped scenario.

Again, I don't understand. There's a device (stick-n-shock) that is assumed to have two tiny tips which will, upon contact, have current flowing across them like a taser. Are you saying the current is then running from one tip of the ammo through the cyberlimbs and wires in the body to one connector on the detonation cap (which was dangerously close to the explosives), out the other connector to a ground (instead of the other tip of the ammo, perhaps due to some malfunction in the assembly of the ammo?) and in doing so exceeded the necessary amperage for enough time to activate the charge in the detonator, exploding the explosives?

I don't work with electronics every day, but I do have a background in it. Please explain to me how this is actually happening so I can understand.

Also, given the same scenario, wouldn't a person not carrying explosives simply die from that same amperage for that same amount of time stopping the heart (given the same cyberlimbs and wires running though the body explanation).

I don't see how it can be non-lethal AND still set of detonators. The current over time to stop the heart is less than the current over time to set off a detonator.

[CanRay]

All I can remember from my work with electricity is flying back and a major urge to never get hit by a taser.

[tagz]

Again, I don't understand. There's a device (stick-n-shock) that is assumed to have two tiny tips which will, upon contact, have current flowing across them like a taser. Are you saying the current is then running from one tip of the ammo through the cyberlimbs and wires in the body to one connector on the detonation cap (which was dangerously close to the explosives), out the other connector to a ground (instead of the other tip, perhaps due to some malfunction in the assembly of the ammo?) and in doing so exceeded the necessary amperage for enough time to activate the charge in the detonator, exploding the explosives?

I don't work with electronics every day, but I do have a background in it. Please explain to me how this is actually happening so I can understand.

Also, given the same scenario, wouldn't a person not carrying explosives simply die from that same amperage for that same amount of time stopping the heart (given the same cyberlimbs and wires running though the body explanation).

I don't see how it can be non-lethal AND still set of detonators. The current over time to stop the heart is less than the current over time to set off the detonator.

An overcurrent protection device is not instantaneous. It has a lag time, dependent on the amount of current, in the fractions of seconds. In the instance of a .5Amp instantaneous fuse receiving 1Amp of current may take up to .1 seconds to blow. Instantaneous to you and me, that's about the human reaction speed, but in the realm of circuitry and electrical components it's long enough for drastic and unexpected effects to happen 10 to 100 times over.

Again, so unlikely it really doesn't matter. It's like the odds of getting struck by lightning, going to another town, and getting stuck again... in the same hour. But, you increase the odds a lot when this imaginary person is chasing a storm with a lightning rod (a metaphor for a cybered Runner i suppose).

As for the heart part, well, in this case it HAS to run through human resistance, whereas the explosives there is the possibility of it running through objects that are condusive to current flow. And for the example of wires in the person... well, i doubt anyone really wants to play a game where a commonly used non-lethal round is lethal to YOU because of an upgrade you broke the bank on.

[tagz]

Anyhow, we're derailing the thread. Personally, I think that the concept works ok as fluff. Like I said previously it only takes one instance of something to make a stupid policy. How many bombs have we found in shoes at the airport? Very few I'd wager, but all it took was one guy trying to light his feet on fire on a plane and now we all have to stop and X-ray our shoes now.

Though I doubt with different corporations they would ALL adopt such a policy. I mean, at the very least the corp that manufactures SnS will still use them if for no other reason then the savings on using their own product.

Personally, I think other fluff might work better. Like for instance a botched recall. Lets say a large amount of SnS was shipped out faulty, lets say hitting with too much voltage or bad overcurrent devices. A couple people get hospitolized. The manufacturers at first tried to hide the fact until it became a media disaster. Recall on the bad ammo, but public trust of the ammo decreased and therefor you see it a little less then what one might expect given the crazy goodness of the ammo.

[suoq]

deleted. was written while the post above was being written and I don't see the point now. If someone wants their NPCs to not use S-n-S, just don't use S-n-S.

[CanRay]

But, you increase the odds a lot when this imaginary person is chasing a storm with a lightning rod.

You double your odds if you're screaming, "All Gods are wankers!" at the top of your lungs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Faradon]

In the game I run SnS really has almost no chance of setting of an explosive kept in a storage device on a runner. Some of my runners have gone as far as to buy bags with a non-conductive material coating them (like a ruthenium coating for an explosives satchel) due to these fears.

The only times I'd really worry about an explosive detonating is from either physical spells (lightning bolt vs plastic explosive and fireball vs TNT) or intentional destruction (SnS being fired with an aimed shot modifier at the plastic explosive in the runner's hand.)

Even under the above circumstances I tend to apply "D&D" logic to such things. If a player is hit with a lightning bolt that hit him by 1-2 net successes and soaks some, I tend not to worry about such side effects. If the attacker beat them on the initial roll by more than 4 net successes (crit hit style) or there was a glitch / critical glich on the player's dodge or resistance roll... then that might be another story.

[Simon Kerimov]

suoq has a good point as far as the current is concerned.

The Taser M26-C discharges 50,000 volts at about 25 watts.

Watts = Volts*Current
Current = 25 watts/50,000 volts
Current = 0.0005 amps or 0.5 miliamps.

I can't find the resistance of plastic explosives (for some reason no one likes to publish details about explosives where terrorists or gamers can get to them. go figure), but we can use the 0.5 amps to figure out what the resistance would need to be.

Volts = Current*Resistance
Resistance = 50,000 volts / 0.5 amps
Resistance = 100,000 ohms
1 mega ohm

I have no idea if that is a likely resistance for something to have, but it's a place to start.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

suoq has a good point as far as the current is concerned.

The Taser M26-C discharges 50,000 volts at about 25 watts.

Watts = Volts*Current
Current = 25 watts/50,000 volts
Current = 0.0005 amps or 0.5 miliamps.

I can't find the resistance of plastic explosives (for some reason no one likes to publish details about explosives where terrorists or gamers can get to them. go figure), but we can use the 0.5 amps to figure out what the resistance would need to be.

Volts = Current*Resistance
Resistance = 50,000 volts / 0.5 amps
Resistance = 100,000 ohms
1 mega ohm

I have no idea if that is a likely resistance for something to have, but it's a place to start.

Plastic Explosives (C4 in particular) burn without detonating (I Used to cook MRE's with it all the time in the Gulf War)... Electrical Detonators, on the other hand, are susceptible to detonation by Current... Unfortunately, the current you ended up with is not enough to detonate a standard Military Electical Detonator (At least not the ones I used when I was in the Marine Corps, and I do not see them reducing their standards)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Simon Kerimov]

Plastic Explosives (C4 in particular) burn without detonating (I Used to cook MRE's with it all the time in the Gulf War)... Electrical Detonators, on the other hand, are susceptible to detonation by Current... Unfortunately, the current you ended up with is not enough to detonate a standard Military Electical Detonator (At least not the ones I used when I wan in the Marine Corps, and I do not see them reducing their standards)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Okay, so 50,000 volts/1.5 amps = 33.33 kΩ. Does that come closer? Explosives are stable to keep this sort of thing from happening, and I think they probably have a high resistance. That said, my real life knowledge and interests in explosives and flammables stopped around the pyro boy scout stage. Magnesium kindling starters are cool and all, but don't relate in any meaningful way to this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay, so 50,000 volts/1.5 amps = 33.33 kΩ. Does that come closer? Explosives are stable to keep this sort of thing from happening, and I think they probably have a high resistance. That said, my real life knowledge and interests in explosives and flammables stopped around the pyro boy scout stage. Magnesium kindling starters are cool and all, but don't relate in any meaningful way to this.

1.5 Amps is closer, if what I am remembering is accurate... and yes, Explosives are exceedingly stable these days... it is almost always the detonators that are susceptible/the weak link...

But Magnesium Kindling starters are fun...

[CanRay]

"You are the weakest link..." *Kah, boom*