Karma Gen, What's the general code of conduct? Options

[ScandRun]

Hi Guys,

So I have a group going where I am running a campaign, and being able to play in a campaign hosted by another player. All players want to be able to use karma gen, and I would appreciate your help in straightening a few issues out.

First we use runners companion karma gen with Ancient History's modifications posted here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...t=0&start=0

My main concern is the total karma awarded for character creation does 750 karma really correlate to the 400 bp awarded in the bp system. How many karma do you guys assign towards character in a medium tier campaign? My initial feeling when converting my BP character to karma was that a 750 points build would be way more powerful than a 400 bp build, is this a correct assumption? So far we have decided on assigning 600 karma for character gen is this reasonable? he campaign where we will use karma gen first off is based on NYC missions with other GM input.

I realise that we shouldn't use karma for char gen in the missions setting per the mission rules, but please ignore this limitation in the current discussion.

This topic may have been covered before, but all input is appreciated nonetheless.

Best Regards,

Scandrun

[Makki]

most (not all!!!) karma generated chars have an equivalent BP cost of 430-550 (rough estimation) but they are not "better". in BP, you tend to Min-Max, get high attributes and high skills, because they cost the same. in Karma gen you tend to buy a lot of low and midlvl skills and especially no high attributes (bad for trolls) because they get very expensive. you can't afford a bod9 str9 troll in karmagen, but it's no problem in BPgen.

i'd suggest no less than 700 Karma...

[Glyph]

In karmagen, you are limited to half of your Karma on both Attributes and Special Attributes (unlike BP). So karmagen is a lot less scalable than BP for lower-powered campaigns. 600 Karma is very weak. I would go with 750 Karma, which will tend to create slightly more powerful characters, although some options will be less viable than they would be with BP.

Also, I would not mix character generation systems. I would use either one or the other.

[Laodicea]

I particularly like karmagen over BPgen because taking lots of low skills is penalized in BPgen.

[Traul]

Has anybody tried to fix karmagen for trolls? One could pay the full cost 2*BP for the metatype and only count the increases from the racial minimum. So for a troll, going up to 6 Body would cost 10 karma.

[Ryu]

With the "SR4A" changes published in the German RC it is actually possible to use BP and karmagen alongside each other. Karmagen favours those who want tons of stuff at lower ratings, BP-gen those who like to min-max. Whatever keeps your char going through the night. (If in doubt, use karma-gen).

600 karma is more appropiate if you don´t use attribute*5 and race karma = race BP.

[Neraph]

I thought 750 karma was the suggest amount from the book.

[Glyph]

It was. And pre-errata, it created characters who generally were massively more powerful than BP characters. According to Ancient History, it was "supposed" to have been 600 karma.

But with the errata, basically spending the SR4A x5 multiplier for Attributes, and spending karma equal to the BP cost for metatypes (so an ork, costing 20 BP, costs 20 karma in karmagen), it is a lot more balanced. Characters still tend to come out a bit higher than 400 BP, but are not nearly as ultra-powerful as they were pre-errata.

BTW, when I said 600 karma was incredibly weak, I was assuming that you were using the errata. If you are using the RAW from an older edition (Attributes bought with the x3 multiplier, metahumans don't have to pay for their metatype), then 600 is actually about right.

[sabs]

I have found that Karma gen penalizes people who like to actually have knowledge skills.

regular BP builds give more rounded characters. Although people tend to min-max the stats and skills because of the flat cost of raising them.

I have found that a 400BP character with free knowledge skills can come in at well over 750Karma.
It depends on wether you min-max like crazy, or build a reasonable character.

[Udoshi]

In karmagen, you are limited to half of your Karma on both Attributes and Special Attributes (unlike BP). So karmagen is a lot less scalable than BP for lower-powered campaigns. 600 Karma is very weak. I would go with 750 Karma, which will tend to create slightly more powerful characters, although some options will be less viable than they would be with BP.

Also, I would not mix character generation systems. I would use either one or the other.

Karmagen is great. If youre entire group is dead set on using it, i would suggest the following houserules just to make everyone's life easier:

1) Special Attributes do NOT count against attribute limits.
2) You get the same amount of free knowledge points as you do in BP gen.
3) Decide if you want to allow initiation or submersion with starting karma
4) i'd suggest AH's errata, but you already have it, so....

That alone should remove most of the headache involved in making a character in karmagen.

[Mäx]

4) i'd suggest AH's errata, but you already have it, so....

It's not really AH:s errata, atleast one guy reported that its printed in the latest version of RC.

[Udoshi]

It's not really AH:s errata, atleast one guy reported that its printed in the latest version of RC.

Augh, what the fuck. They print the newest version, but won't put out a change file on the web.

And i -just- got my meatcopy of the RC a few months ago too, dammit.

[Makki]

1) Special Attributes do NOT count against attribute limits.
2) You get the same amount of free knowledge points as you do in BP gen.
3) Decide if you want to allow initiation or submersion with starting karma
4) i'd suggest AH's errata, but you already have it, so....

1) That's very important!
2) That's very dangerous. I'd reduce it to 700-730 Karma while using this option.
3) never tried it, but one initiation doesnt't hurt i think

[Neraph]

KarmaGen also allows a physical-based Technomancer to actually be useful at the start of the game. Having access to a couple of Submersions will let him pick up Biowire and at least one level of Acceleration, making sure he's not nearly so behind the power curve of the other physical-based characters.

[Udoshi]

KarmaGen also allows a physical-based Technomancer to actually be useful at the start of the game. Having access to a couple of Submersions will let him pick up Biowire and at least one level of Acceleration, making sure he's not nearly so behind the power curve of the other physical-based characters.

I've been playing around with this concept recently. Its actaully not too hard to get off the ground. TM's have a unique advantage, in that they can start with the resonance equivalent of a magic group. Technomancer networks have no karma cost to join, so...... all you need is a group contact to represent it. Add to that a free sprite contact, which you can help reassemble and improve itself, also counts as a submersion ordeal. With a clever application of build points, a TM is able to start with a 60% discount on all submersions.
8 for the first submersion isn't bad at ALL. 10 for the second nets you your second meat pass.

You can get that off the ground fairly quickly. If you use Drugs (cram and jazz, mostly) to get your extra passes when you're first taking off, people won't notice at all by the time you've got your stealthsam up and running, and don't need the dope anymore.

[Irion]

Technomancer are able to get 60% discount?! I assume you meant 40%, so they have to pay 60% of the price.

As a matter of facts I would allow to carry over a unlimited amount of Karma to the game. This way you are able to initiate without the implication of cheese. (Well, may be I would imply a limit of 100)

To Trolls: I do not see a problem in paying for Body 9, if getting Body 9.

The only ones, who get in deep trouble are TMs. Complex forms are very expensive.
From 60 BPs for 10*6 to 210 Karma for the same.

[Udoshi]

Technomancer are able to get 60% discount?! I assume you meant 40%, so they have to pay 60% of the price.

Yeah, you're right. I messed up the numbers there. Their max discount is 40%