Fusing Fantasy & Cyberpunk in a non-lame way Options

[Mooncrow]

Edited down what? I only changed the wording because I didn't like the way it read. Stop trying to stir up shit. Damn this board is full of drama queens.

I would have been worried about how it read to the mods as well. I wouldn't have come into this argument if you hadn't pulled your "oh I wasn't being insulting" drek. You were and you are.

To the substance of you argument, I find it hilarious that you're using a Tolkien trope to describe the future of the SR world, while deriding his work the entire time. We don't know what would happen to races that lived longer than us, what their motivations would look like. If the "race against death" is really why humans do as well as they do.

In the SR world though, it's explicitly not how it is. Lofwyr acted incredibly fast, and still does. Most of the other greats act with similar speed. They may have long term plans in mind, but that hasn't stopped them from reshaping the fabric of our society at blinding speed.

And yeah, that means the longer this state of affairs goes on, the more likely murder is going to be used as a common form of corp intrigue.

[Paul Kauphart]

And yeah, that means the longer this state of affairs goes on, the more likely murder is going to be used as a common form of corp intrigue.

Sounds like more job to me, can't be that bad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Synner667]

And yeah, that means the longer this state of affairs goes on, the more likely murder is going to be used as a common form of corp intrigue.

More likely to end up as a ritualised form of combat [after all, why waste exec talent in needless death ??]...
...One example of which is the car combat in Richard Morgan's Market Forces, where people challenge each other and the winner gets promoted.

[Mooncrow]

I imagine that eventually there will be things similar to how TT was initially planned, ie contests of skill to ensure continued fitness. But that's going to take a pretty huge paradigm shift before it happens.

[Kruger]

Sure, whatever.

Anyhow, I wasn't really deriding Tolkein. His world works in its world. It's true I'm not his biggest fan as an author. I think his writing style leaves a lot to be desired. But it's hard to have a discussion of modern fantasy elements without referencing him. Especially since it was obvious that Shadowun's creators took Tolkein and Gibson, combined them, and ran with it. Everything about the way magic and metahumanity works in Shadowrun is taken from the Tolkein/D&D norm. Pointing out or criticizing the places where it doesn't work in Shadowrun isn't critical of Tolkein's vision. If you read carefully, you realize I didn;t call Tolkein idiotic, I called it idiotic to have retained the classic Tolkein concepts of immortality to be true in a world where elves were genetically linked to humans, and when combined with the established background for the game.

We know that you're heavily into the fantasy aspect of the game. That's cool. I played D&D, WFRP, read all the classic books as a kid, still hold onto the dwindling hope George RR Martin will finish his series before he dies... It's true my interests primarily lie in lower fantasy whereas yours are in higher fantasy, but it isn't so huge of a divide.

I also like science, and science fiction too. And, when it comes to Shadowrun, I would prefer the blend make a bit more sense. So I like to examine the background material a bit closer than some. None of my statements were made with some kind of "And it was so" authority. And you've certainly been confused if you think the implication that longer lived beings having longer range plans precludes the idea of any kind of immediate decisiveness. For example. Smaug reacts pretty quickly to Bilbo stealing his shit.

[Synner667]

For example. Smaug reacts pretty quickly to Bilbo stealing his shit.

Ewww...
...Is that in the unedited version ?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Ewww...
...Is that in the unedited version ?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Didn't you ever play Lunar? Don't you know what Dragon Diamonds really are?

[Mooncrow]

Sure, whatever.

Anyhow, I wasn't really deriding Tolkein. His world works in its world. It's true I'm not his biggest fan as an author. I think his writing style leaves a lot to be desired. But it's hard to have a discussion of modern fantasy elements without referencing him. Especially since it was obvious that Shadowun's creators took Tolkein and Gibson, combined them, and ran with it. Everything about the way magic and metahumanity works in Shadowrun is taken from the Tolkein/D&D norm. Pointing out or criticizing the places where it doesn't work in Shadowrun isn't critical of Tolkein's vision. If you read carefully, you realize I didn;t call Tolkein idiotic, I called it idiotic to have retained the classic Tolkein concepts of immortality to be true in a world where elves were genetically linked to humans, and when combined with the established background for the game.

We know that you're heavily into the fantasy aspect of the game. That's cool. I played D&D, WFRP, read all the classic books as a kid, still hold onto the dwindling hope George RR Martin will finish his series before he dies... It's true my interests primarily lie in lower fantasy whereas yours are in higher fantasy, but it isn't so huge of a divide.

I also like science, and science fiction too. And, when it comes to Shadowrun, I would prefer the blend make a bit more sense. So I like to examine the background material a bit closer than some. None of my statements were made with some kind of "And it was so" authority. And you've certainly been confused if you think the implication that longer lived beings having longer range plans precludes the idea of any kind of immediate decisiveness. For example. Smaug reacts pretty quickly to Bilbo stealing his shit.

Thank you, that clarifies your position nicely. Very insightful, even =) One last comment in regards to your last sentence though, I was specifically talking about this statement:

Everything mankind has achieved has been because of our mortality. People are motivated to accomplish things in part because we don't live forever. Would the Tir nation share that same drive? If they did, what kinds of discontent are you going to see amongst a population that is inherently familiar with human standards of goal setting and time lapse but don't have the same genetic disposition?

[Kruger]

Well, then you leave me confused as to where you're confused.

That quote was phrased as a question. I didn't say they wouldn't, I asked if they would. It was designed to get the input of others on what they thought. One of my biggest sticking points on traditional elves in role playing games was how to model them correctly. A lot fantasy authors of any repute have modeled them (long lived elves) as somewhat aloof and with a certain level of disinterest in the affairs of mankind. And that assumedly refers to the concerns of a race that is so short lived. But, then again, in most traditional fantasy realms, long lived elves are also long established in the world too. Shadowrun's elves are brand new (aside from the ones they've tried to tie to Earthdawn), and stuck in a human world. Even Tir can't be aloof and go at its own pace if it wants to interact in any way with the outside world. Really, I just see it as an inconsistency borne out of bad storytelling in 1e. So yes, it seems like elves shouldn't be good corporate sharks, but the established canon has said they are. They'd have to be to accomplish what they have, as unrealistic as a lot of it seems like it should be.

To be fair, I stopped playing elves in role playing games a long time ago because I felt the mentality of them was too alien to play "correctly". Same reason our games of L5R died quiet deaths. Loved the background material, loved the card game, even love the concept. Too difficult to play. Samurai played by most modern westerners aren't samurai. They're just traditional western characters in bathrobes and sandals with katanas, lol.

[Mooncrow]

Well, then you leave me confused as to where you're confused.

That quote was phrased as a question. I didn't say they wouldn't, I asked if they would. It was designed to get the input of others on what they thought. One of my biggest sticking points on traditional elves in role playing games was how to model them correctly. A lot fantasy authors of any repute have modeled them (long lived elves) as somewhat aloof and with a certain level of disinterest in the affairs of mankind. And that assumedly refers to the concerns of a race that is so short lived. But, then again, in most traditional fantasy realms, long lived elves are also long established in the world too. Shadowrun's elves are brand new (aside from the ones they've tried to tie to Earthdawn), and stuck in a human world. Even Tir can't be aloof and go at its own pace if it wants to interact in any way with the outside world. Really, I just see it as an inconsistency borne out of bad storytelling in 1e. So yes, it seems like elves shouldn't be good corporate sharks, but the established canon has said they are. They'd have to be to accomplish what they have, as unrealistic as a lot of it seems like it should be.

To be fair, I stopped playing elves in role playing games a long time ago because I felt the mentality of them was too alien to play correctly. Same reason our games of L5R died quiet deaths. Loved the background material, loved the card game, even love the concept. Too difficult to play. Samurai played by most modern westerners aren't samurai. They're just traditional western characters in bathrobes and sandals with katanas, lol.

I see. The first part sounded like a definitive statement, making the questions seem a bit rhetorical. Thanks for clarifying.

Earthdawn's history seems to support the excellent corporate raider concept pretty well though, certainly the Therans were cutthroat and ruthless enough to give Damian Knight a run for his money^^ So while I see your point, everything written in-universe for the SR elves rejects the traditional elvish disinterest (well, perhaps the blood wood, for the traditionalists out there - but that didn't work out so well either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). It feels pretty consistent to me. More traditional, Irish sidhe - amoral, ready to cut your throat.

[Inca]

@Kruger

I agree a lot with your statement. The one aspect of SR that always confused me until people clarified this thing about immortal elves was there was always this weird dichotomy between elves being these beings that just genetically look different than humans but they have no real culture or anything....but then all of a sudden they are acting like this ancient all knowing beings and that was never clarified to me. My opinion is that most elves,dwarves, orks, trolls pretty much have the same outlook as a lot of kids who were adopted from china or africa for example....culturally and behaviorally they are no different than their peers...but they look different and that aspect alone can be enough to either give them some weird complexes, deny completely that they are different in any way, or alienate them and push them psychologically to seek out those in their same predicament....and also many of them just become well-adjusted adults who are comfortable with who they are. I feel that most elves just kind of half-ass check out sperethiel and by and large are mostly molded by the culture of the region their from. The only difference would be the Tir's where kids have been purposely educated to have a certain cultural identity that defines itself along racial lines. Much like israel which was formed by a bunch of people who actually didn't have all that much in common except that they were jewish...but came from vastly different backgrounds....but they were educated to all ascribe to one cultural identity.
So when SR starts treating metahumans the same way as D&D it just makes no sense at all....when they say the "dwarves" like to do this and the "elves" behave in such and such way just like how tolkien would describe his races....it just makes no sense at all. Only 60 years have gone by and probably more than half of metahumans have human grandparents....and sure they were persecuted and run off and had to find their own paths...but still, i feel it would take centuries for the "races" to really divide off into separate nations....but at this early time of the awakening everyone is really confused and places like Tir are basically just giant social experiments....but i feel national and ethnic identity would still dominate heavily over metahuman identity. A japanese troll is going to feel more japanese than a member of that troll nation in the black forest in germany....despite all the racism i'm sure he's suffered. The same is even true today with ethnicity vs. race....by and large people mostly identify with their cultural ethnic group and then pretty much mostly just give a little nod to their racial identity. Look at mexican americans and salvadorean americans.....or african americans and african immigrants....the cultural group takes primacy. So it just feels really artificial to try to do the whole "elves have certain disposition"....maybe in 2172 it could be morel like tolkien...but not in 2072.

[Critias]

It would be great if people stopped using the word "immortal" concerning Elves in Shadowrun. They're not. The very, very, few that are are specifically not called Elves any more, but Immortal Elves. They're so unique it's right there in their name.

If you're going to talk about how "idiotic" it is for Tolkien's ideas of immortality to be pulled into Shadowrun, maybe you should at least go check that those ideas did get pulled into Shadowrun.

[Kruger]

I see you're still stuck on the wording of forever, when it was obvious the intention was drawing the parallel of immortal elves with elves that live "several hundred years" (1e& 4e), which is well, well beyond that of a normal human and effectively forever, in game terms.

It's okay, the rest of us will wait while you catch up.

[sabs]

Shadowrun Elves, like Earthdawn elves.. live to be ~ 400 years old.
Which to a human is fraking for ever

[CanRay]

A gutshot Elf has a tendency to live as long as any other metatype that's also been gut shot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Old age only matters when you're living in a world where it isn't dangerous!

[Dwight]

Inca, for the most part Toilken didn't get pulled into Shadowrun other than body forms. Immortal Elves, as Critias points out, are vastly different than Elves. Elves are just as grubby and dirty as the next metahuman. They aren't the impossibly light, millennium-long-living, back-to-nature, effeminate (as was the British uppercrust ideal of Toilken's day) elves. What was brought into the 6th world setting were the negatives, the racism and pride and aloofness. Unfortunately they didn't bring the biggest negative of Toilken elves, their extreme magical melancholy that could bring the elf to death or blind rage.

[CanRay]

Tolkien also didn't have his elves strung up by the descendants of the KKK.

Oh, wait, you got racism in there. OK.

[Dwight]

Tolkien also didn't have his elves strung up by the descendants of the KKK.

Oh, wait, you got racism in there. OK.

I included racism the other way, but the Orcs hated Elves in Tolkien in only the way that the Japanese and Koreans can hate each other. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That is something else of Tolkien that didn't make it. The very deep Elf-Orc connection.


EDIT: Oh, and the human nobility in Tolkien being quite hostile towards the Elves was not uncommon. It was just difficult to act on it to the extent you describe because Elves could run on snow and shoot 2 arrows at once (I saw it in a movie! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

[sabs]

I included racism the other way, but the Orcs hated Elves in Tolkien in only the way that the Japanese and Koreans can hate each other. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That is something else of Tolkien that didn't make it. The very deep Elf-Orc connection.

That's because Orcs in Tolkien are actually Elves that Sauron warped.

[Dwight]

That's because Orcs in Tolkien are actually Elves that Sauron warped.

Right. That's the part that didn't get imported.

In a lot of ways Shadowrun Elves are closer to the pre-Tolkien Elves of myth.

[CanRay]

Right down to being bastards that steal anything that isn't nailed down.

And even an Island or two, as the Irish found out.

[sabs]

Right down to being bastards that steal anything that isn't nailed down.

And even an Island or two, as the Irish found out.

If they liked it, they shoulda put a ring around it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dwight]

If they liked it, they shoulda put a ring around it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[CanRay]

Actually, one of the NPCs my group just met is an Elf that's in the Irish Republic Army in Exile (IRAiE). You know he's got to be tough to stay with that crowd and have pointy ears!

[Critias]

I see you're still stuck on the wording of forever, when it was obvious the intention was drawing the parallel of immortal elves with elves that live "several hundred years" (1e& 4e), which is well, well beyond that of a normal human and effectively forever, in game terms.

It's okay, the rest of us will wait while you catch up.

I called it idiotic to have retained the classic Tolkein concepts of immortality to be true in a world where elves were genetically linked to humans...

Yeah. That's it. You repeatedly use the wrong words (like "forever" and "immortal"), and then you get snarky, sarcastic, smug, and dismissive when someone calls on it, and act like they're the stupid one. Neat trick. For someone that's been so wrong so consistently in this thread, you're being awful rude.

Even after folks have expressed confusion as to the accuracy of your statements, and those statements were corrected, you've continued to use "forever" and "immortal" as a means of making your point. Why? If your argument is valid, shouldn't it be able to stand while you use, y'know, the right words? Why keep on purposefully saying the wrong thing, then snapping at anyone who goes by what you actually say instead of magically guessing about what your intention was?

All I'm saying is that you should probably use the appropriate word, to stop exaggerating your point. "Long-lived" would be appropriate, for instance.