New answer on "Since when did Shadowrun depart from our world story line" Options

[IKerensky]

I was thinking about the NAN and the reality argument rising about population numbers then I start to think about how we could use current world statistics to analyse SR4 or SRx situation and background.

At first I was in the opinion the distopy started in the '90 with soviet union, but it wasn't really a satisfying answer because of the technological level and commercial corporation. It sounded like SR world distorted from the '70 who could explain more of it.

Then it suddenly dawn on me : SR world distorted from us from the very beggining. Even if he somewhat look like our history there is deep change in world population and economical progress that could explain massive difference.

First of all, before 2.000 years in Europe it was stone-age times, so early antiquities that predate writing... except that this is not the case in SR World. Archeological proof of very advanced civilisation (re)appeared in Ukraine and other place.

The 4th world end in -3000/-3500 with Atlantis destruction, but the world population at this time is supposed to be quite high with many organised kingdom, writting, law system, arts and history that predate it for at least 2000-3000 years more. That eons above our own planet as far as civilisation and population goes.

Could degoblinisation be such a traumatic event that it had plunged a magical medieval society back to stone-age ? possibly. Could have it killed 95% of the population and destroyed every state system, writting system, cultural system ? this sound less than possible.

SR 6th world have his roots as much in the 5th than in the 4th world (and even before for Dragons and such), so any use of current statistic, population number, invention, laws or economics should be made only if backed up with game material statistic confirmation. If you consider the time and place the first Arcology develop, the technological progress speed, the sociological and political massive change that happen even before Awakening you can say that SR world taste the same than us and is quite similar but disturbingly different in essence.

So :

Could the NAN have separated/existed in SR ? yes, because as far as we know perhaps the number of natives american in SR USA is 10 to 100 times the numbers in our world.
Could the CSA be born back in SR ? yes, because as far as we know there is no information on how Civil War ended in SR world, perhaps the war was shorter, perhaps the South managed to settle a peace before being military broken and such separatist movement could be well politically alive and strong in SR USA.

[Neraph]

I admire your efforts, but I've always viewed SR as an alternate reality, simply because its existance is counter to my own beliefs. Many of the things that are true and proved in SR are completely against my personal beliefs, and are not true and proven in this current age.

But yeah, best way to look at it is kinda a Sliders alternate reality.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, I never let personal beliefs get involved in anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd say the worlds diverged *at least* as far back as the very first edition of SR was published, for one thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Inca]

I wouldn't get too hung up on what source materials give for population numbers. Seattle 2072 says the population density of Seattle is about 750/sq.km. and has a population of 3,000,000....and remember, seattle incorporated it's suburbs at some point in the SR timeline. The current total metro population of seattle is like 3,400,00...and has a population density of about 2,800/sq. km. So i'm supposed to believe that Seattle of 2072 has less people than it does today but it's a massive sprawl metroplex....but in today's u.s. it's a medium sized city that is known for it's cleanliness and livability....that just makes no sense. Another problem with the VITAS plagues is that each one supposedly wiped out 1/4 of the human population...I mean, that would mean there is no way that the world of 2072 is any more overcrowded than the world today...but supposedly SR is a world teaming with meta-humans climbing over each other to eek out a living. I think they just didn't put a lot of thought into the numbers so we shouldn't either and just go with numbers that represent more of the feel we're looking for in our campaigns. I usually just take fluff material and work around it...like my players say that seattle has only 3,000,000 people and i'll just say that there are more than 3 times that many SINless who never show up in a census....so the fluff still is valid but only for a segment of the population.

When it comes to NAN, it just makes sense that they are very sparsely populated areas that are protected by the treaty of denver which is in turn protected by greater cosmic forces like Daniel Howling Coyote. Many tribes people have gone back to living as hunter gatherers and they need huge swaths of land to survive this way. Most of us living in the U.S. think that native americans are like an endangered species and their culture is like some kind of lost relic, but that's because we rarely encounter them if you don't live near reservations. As soon as you go to reservations or near one, you quickly realize that they are alive and well and their culture is living on and thriving today.
Especially with this new Arizona law...the Re-education and Re-location Act doesn't seem too far fetched. You see how many people went to Glenn Beck's rally on saturday? None of those people would have a problem with a Re-education and Re-location Act on several minority groups in the U.S. today.
If you take a read of the Sixth World Almanac, you'll see that they do a really good job of incorporating modern day themes and i feel they successfully updated SR as well as could be done without totally rebooting the time-line.

[Neraph]

Especially with this new Arizona law...the Re-education and Re-location Act doesn't seem too far fetched. You see how many people went to Glenn Beck's rally on saturday? None of those people would have a problem with a Re-education and Re-location Act on several minority groups in the U.S. today.

Good job bashing on someone with no method to defend themselves and implying that they're racist also.

Actually, the United States as a whole did do a Re-education and Re-location thing.. Not once, but many times in our history. We did it to the Native Americans a few times (why do you think they are on reservations in the first place? Why are they on reservations now that are nowhere near their original lands? Have you heard about the Trail of Tears?), and I think we did it to the Chinese or German immigrants during one of the World Wars.

So yeah, it's not some sort of thing that's integral to "right-winged extremists" like Inca apparently would have you believe, but it is a historical fact that America has done before, and would probably do again if Native Americans threatened the US with real magic and goblinization really occured.

[Yerameyahu]

Poor Mr. Beck, no national radio and TV shows to defend himself? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm not getting into the politics here on Dumpshock, but it's hard to argue that things like the Arizona laws aren't right-wing (you're right that they're, sadly, not 'extremist', though).

[Ascalaphus]

History as we know it is an Immortal-Elf sponsored coverup for the 4th world?

[Mäx]

I wouldn't get too hung up on what source materials give for population numbers. Seattle 2072 says the population density of Seattle is about 750/sq.km. and has a population of 3,000,000....and remember, seattle incorporated it's suburbs at some point in the SR timeline. The current total metro population of seattle is like 3,400,00...and has a population density of about 2,800/sq. km. So i'm supposed to believe that Seattle of 2072 has less people than it does today but it's a massive sprawl metroplex....but in today's u.s. it's a medium sized city that is known for it's cleanliness and livability....that just makes no sense.

Your missing the part where those population numbers only include the SINners, not the massess of SINless people.

[Neraph]

i'll just say that there are more than 3 times that many SINless who never show up in a census....so the fluff still is valid but only for a segment of the population.

No he didn't.

[Warlordtheft]

Especially with this new Arizona law...the Re-education and Re-location Act doesn't seem too far fetched. You see how many people went to Glenn Beck's rally on saturday? None of those people would have a problem with a Re-education and Re-location Act on several minority groups in the U.S. today.

Be careful, I'd respond to the inaccuracies in this statement but that would turn it into a political discussion (violating TOS). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

Back on topic, I think and (I hope to get my SONA book soon--ordered a replacement copy online) IIRC the NAN knew they didn't have the populations to support their economies if they kicked every anglo out. So instead they made enough loopholes that the pinkskin groups, those with just a hint of native blood, and those that were married into the tribe to be allowed to stay. The Ute being the big exception-and they fell apart because of it.

[MJBurrage]

The first concrete divergence I recall at the moment, is the election in 1992, of Jeffrey Lynch as the 42nd President of the United States.

Shadowrun is in a world where:

• The Clinton's never reached national politics.
• Bush Jr. never reached national politics.
• 9/11 did not happen.
• The 'War on Terror' in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. did not happen.
• Katrina did not happen.

[Neraph]

Of course that can be explained as the books being written before those events happened.

[Doc Chase]

Good job bashing on someone with no method to defend themselves and implying that they're racist also.

Actually, the United States as a whole did do a Re-education and Re-location thing.. Not once, but many times in our history. We did it to the Native Americans a few times (why do you think they are on reservations in the first place? Why are they on reservations now that are nowhere near their original lands? Have you heard about the Trail of Tears?), and I think we did it to the Chinese or German immigrants during one of the World Wars.

So yeah, it's not some sort of thing that's integral to "right-winged extremists" like Inca apparently would have you believe, but it is a historical fact that America has done before, and would probably do again if Native Americans threatened the US with real magic and goblinization really occured.

Japanese-Americans on the West Coast during WWII. We left the Germans alone, though the 're-education' portion was missing. These were simply internment camps because the country as a whole didn't trust Hondas, Suzukis or Kawasakis.

That came after the war. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SR is a world where IE's managed to bring forth technological breakthroughs in major areas well before we started seriously looking there - I.E. Suborbitals, cybernetics and DNI's. Those breakthroughs allowed the creation of corporations well before their time, and then the government started actively listening to them. Well, more than they do now.

[Neraph]

Yeah, it was the Japanese Americans during WWII. It was horrible what happened to them.

[Dwight]

Poor Mr. Beck, no national radio and TV shows to defend himself? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is lack of grip on reality. Although he's an entertainer, first and foremost he's Barnum & Baily, so he might actually have a better grip than one would gather from the stuff he says. So I think the problem with defending himself has more to do with breaking character. It's all so Andy Kaufman-esque. I'd say Colbert-esque but he's way, way deeper into it than that.

On the people that got hammered hard in WWII, where honest to goodness US citizens (even ones born in the US) that got bent over the barrel, it was mainly the Japanese-origin citizens...but really all the "yellow menace" was rounded up, differentiation between them that wasn't widely practiced. :^ Some German-born got some heat, and city and town names were changed to hind the uncomfortable connection but largely it could be ignored because they didn't stick out quite as much (and obviously German last names like Eisenhower were high up in positions of power). Also pursuing German born would create some other issues would open another can of worms with well placed people that had been the reason for the delay in entering WWII (for example Ford) and also there was differentiation between those that had emigrated very much because of the Third Reich and reasons that were being used as reasons to be in the war (and the Lend Lease prior to entering).

Overall the US talks a good game of "freedom" but, as someone from the 'outside' that's moved here (white as Wonder bread), where the rubber meets the road in people's mindsets it is quite often more an expectation that it is "freedom to get with the program".

[Link]

The first concrete divergence I recall at the moment, is the election in 1992, of Jeffrey Lynch as the 42nd President of the United States.

Shadowrun is in a world where:

• Katrina did not happen.

I recall some post on DS putting the first divergence at some point in the 80's but I forget the details (very helpful;).
Also, why didn't Katrina happen in SR? (apart from the fact it may have been worthy of mention due to its impact.)

[MJBurrage]

I recall some post on DS putting the first divergence at some point in the 80's but I forget the details (very helpful;).
Also, why didn't Katrina happen in SR? (apart from the fact it may have been worthy of mention due to its impact.)

The first edition of Shadowrun was published in 1989, and it included a future history.

The writer's have to date decided not to retcon real world events into Shadowrun's history. Rather, they invented in universe reasons to update the flavour of the game to better fit advances in the real world.

I.E. 4th Ed. is a more realistic future to the 2010s, than the past editions (wireless, RFID, etc) and they did this with a 2060s crash, rather than changing established game history.

IMHO, keep the esisting rich history helps keep the universe alive in a way that most games lack, while still allowing the game to feel up-to-date for new players.

Personally, even back in 3rd Ed. I felt that the Matrix was too wire-based for the non-decker user, and it always bugged me how limited many gadgets were, compared to RL advances.

[Doc Byte]

First of all, before 2.000 years in Europe it was stone-age times, so early antiquities that predate writing... except that this is not the case in SR World. Archeological proof of very advanced civilisation (re)appeared in Ukraine and other place.

Uh, wait! Stone Age two thousand years ago in Europe?!? You're aware the Bible / New Testament was roughly written at the end of the first century AD and we're now living in the 21st century? 2.000 years ago wasn't even Bronze Age but several centuries into the Iron Age. We're talking about the Roman Empire here. Julius Caesar was born in 100 BC.

If we're talking about Bronze Age we have to go back to the Minoans about 2,5 millenniums BC. Homer wrote the War of Troy and the Odyssey in the 9th or 8th century BC. But we have the Epic of Gilgamesh from Mesopotamia which is at least 1.000 years older. And the Great Pyramid of Giza was probably build in the 26th century BC by Cheops.

Stonehenge was build in the Stone Age maybe as early as 5.000 but not later than 4.000 years ago. (Obviously there was a fluent passage from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age and the Mediterranean region was some time ahead.)


Ehran the Scribe stated that the 4th world endet in 3.113 BC. - About a century before the beginning of the Bronze Age in Greece. The Black Sea was probably flooded by the Mediterranean Sea around the middle of the 7th millennium BC rising about 30 meters and turning from a freshwater lake into an ocean. That's probably the source of Noah's flood which appears to be copied from the Epic of Gilgamesh. That was at the end of the last Iceage, a time that saw global warming and rising sea levels as the ice covering most of northern Europe melted away. Any high culture between the 7th and 3rd millennium's currently purely speculative but some scientist consider a culture predating the Minoans possible.

I'd say - provided some imagination - Earth Dawn works pretty well within the frame of our RL history.


Edit: Anyone interested in Atlantis might enjoy the novel "Atlantis" by David Gibbins.

[Link]

The dissolution of the Soviet Union being retconned in SR2 (in a somewhat half arsed manner) is once instance I recall. I agree with keeping history where it doesn't contradict the game's storyline as SR generally focuses on the major aspects that lead to the SR future.
As for Katrina, I thought that perhaps it may have been specifically excluded by some turn of events in SR's New Orleans or the like of which I'm unaware. Otherwise I would say it occurred along with the Boxing Day tsunami and the Star Wars prequels.

[Neraph]

That's probably the source of Noah's flood which appears to be copied from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

I would care to debate that, but on a different forum.

[Doc Byte]

I would care to debate that, but on a different forum.

There's not much I could add, as I didn't read the Epos yet myself. Just read about it and saw documentary reports on TV. But at the end of the last Iceage stories of great floods spread around the globe. The Aborigines tell stories about it and the Native Americans do know a time of great floods as well. And if we can't stop today's global warming and the polar ice melts away, it might happen all over again. - But that's very OT. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Thera is a real greek island. It's also one of the possible locations for Atlantis.
Which fits the Earthdawn Thera rather well.

Homer could have been talkiing about the de-goblinization and the fall of the great Theran empire when magic stopped supporting their way of life. Remember, they had several floating cities. Skypoint notably being one. If Magic failed spectacularly it could cause a lot of issues.

Trolls, Orks, Elves, Dwarves, Tskrang all started having human children.
Windlings died out.
Obsidiman melded back into their rocks to hibernate. (And never recovered.. or the Magic level of Shadowrun isn't high enough)

All this stuff can easily fit inside our history.
It's probably best not to go into the Bible stories. So many of them are clearly lifted from mythos of other cultures and religions at the time.
Heck, Judaism bears a very striking resemblence to one of the Sumerian Religions.

[Tai-Pan]

[*]9/11 did not happen.

This wouldn't have mattered much considering Manhattan island was demolished by an earthquake in '05

[BlackMyron]

I usually put the "divergence point" at 1989, coincidentally the year Shadowrun was released - in game, it's the year that Shiawase Corporation is inherited by Emori Shiawase and begins to go big-time, although it existed prior to that.
Note that many 'real world' events still happen - the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the LA riots in 1992, the return of Hong Kong to China in 1997 and the turnover of the Panama Canal Zone in 2000.
Even without magic, the timeline sharply diverges in the 1990s - with the US engaged in massive deregulation, a number of riots, and of course the Shiawase and Seretech Decisions.

[Neraph]

It's probably best not to go into the Bible stories. So many of them are clearly lifted from mythos of other cultures and religions at the time.
Heck, Judaism bears a very striking resemblence to one of the Sumerian Religions.

Again, I would be happy to debate this, but this is not a topic that you need to be bringing up on a forum for a fictional game.