[X] My Assistant

[Angelone]

Actually, the stats in the book are the minimums for a Great: so Masaru or Arleesh maybe. The established ones are much, much higher. I think Celedyr had his stats published once, and his magic was something like 25. That's not even considering the really big boys like Lofwyr or Ghostwalker.

Rhonabwy had his stats published in Prime Runners way back when, he had Magic 25. I seem to remember the Sea Dragon (forget her name) stated up somewhere as well. Arleesh is stated up in Bottled Demon and is pretty weak, but at that point she'd only been active for about 10 months so was probably not at full strength. Not Sure about Celedyr, I'll do more digging.

[Darkeus]

All of you have no imagination.

To successfully enchant a Great Dragon, all you need is a team of a few hundred mages and/or ally spirits working together in a teamwork/extended test.

A team of a few hundred high-force ally spirits (say force 20 and above) would have no trouble scoring the required hits in order to enchant a great dragon regardless of how powerful his essence/magic is.

Or a team of a few hundred mages burning one point of edge each.

No problemo, chummers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You will NEVER.

Let me repeat, NEVER.

Let me say it one more time to get the point across. NEVER

Be able to pull this off. You cannot get that many Ally spirits (I see we still want to try and break those rules). This scenario is moot since it is impossible.

[Thirty Second Ar...]

Hm. How would I inhabit a dragon? Well, the first trick is killing one that's big enough to live inside and hoping the body's still mostly in one piece afterward. ;)

[Angelone]

Or you could have a dragon shaped house built.

[Neraph]

You cannot get that many Ally spirits (I see we still want to try and break those rules). This scenario is moot since it is impossible.

Actually it is not impossible. You can have as many Ally Spirits as you want, at as high a Force as you can pay. The problem with this scenario is available karma and making sure no-one catches on.

Both of those are monumental tasks, however.

[Mordinvan]

Actually it is not impossible. You can have as many Ally Spirits as you want, at as high a Force as you can pay. The problem with this scenario is available karma and making sure no-one catches on.

Both of those are monumental tasks, however.

The karma is actually the easy part. If even a single attempt allows the spirit of the dragon to flee and warn anyone about what you are doing, the land mass you occupy will quickly heat up to about 20-30 thousands degrees, and begin to rapidly expand in a hemispherical configuration.

[Sephiroth]

The karma is actually the easy part. If even a single attempt allows the spirit of the dragon to flee and warn anyone about what you are doing, the land mass you occupy will quickly heat up to about 20-30 thousands degrees, and begin to rapidly expand in a hemispherical configuration.

I wouldn't call the karma part easy relative to your latter point. Drain Karma is a fairly torturous power for the victims, and it seems like the amount of karma needed requires a massive amount of victims. If you Drain your victims to death, LS and KE will get pretty motivated to find you as the body count rises. If you don't, they and others will be motivated to find you as the assault count rises. If you don't and wipe their memories of the incident, people will STILL notice something wrong happening, as large amounts of people report sudden and unexplained aging, weakness, debilitation, internal injuries, et cetera. That will draw the attention of big players, including adult dragons as a bare minimum, and the super-super-super-intelligent greats could probably guess what you're planning almost immediately, when you probably haven't even made an attempt yet.

[Mooncrow]

Rhonabwy had his stats published in Prime Runners way back when, he had Magic 25. I seem to remember the Sea Dragon (forget her name) stated up somewhere as well. Arleesh is stated up in Bottled Demon and is pretty weak, but at that point she'd only been active for about 10 months so was probably not at full strength. Not Sure about Celedyr, I'll do more digging.

I'm probably thinking of Rhonabwy then.

[Mordinvan]

I wouldn't call the karma part easy relative to your latter point. Drain Karma is a fairly torturous power for the victims, and it seems like the amount of karma needed requires a massive amount of victims. If you Drain your victims to death, LS and KE will get pretty motivated to find you as the body count rises. If you don't, they and others will be motivated to find you as the assault count rises. If you don't and wipe their memories of the incident, people will STILL notice something wrong happening, as large amounts of people report sudden and unexplained aging, weakness, debilitation, internal injuries, et cetera. That will draw the attention of big players, including adult dragons as a bare minimum, and the super-super-super-intelligent greats could probably guess what you're planning almost immediately, when you probably haven't even made an attempt yet.

Sucubi get to drain Karma by watching people have sex, and it causes no discomfort at all. Using this version of the power, its way easier to get away with then you might otherwise think. A force 20 spirit is about 160 karma just for the force, tack on another 40 to make it fairly flexable, and you're talking 200 each. A decent s&m club could earn you 30 a night with out too much effort. Trust me, Karma is the EASY part.

[Mordinvan]

I wouldn't call the karma part easy relative to your latter point. Drain Karma is a fairly torturous power for the victims, and it seems like the amount of karma needed requires a massive amount of victims. If you Drain your victims to death, LS and KE will get pretty motivated to find you as the body count rises. If you don't, they and others will be motivated to find you as the assault count rises. If you don't and wipe their memories of the incident, people will STILL notice something wrong happening, as large amounts of people report sudden and unexplained aging, weakness, debilitation, internal injuries, et cetera. That will draw the attention of big players, including adult dragons as a bare minimum, and the super-super-super-intelligent greats could probably guess what you're planning almost immediately, when you probably haven't even made an attempt yet.

Sucubi get to drain Karma by watching people have sex, and it causes no discomfort at all. Using this version of the power, its way easier to get away with then you might otherwise think. A force 20 spirit is about 160 karma just for the force, tack on another 40 to make it fairly flexable, and you're talking 200 each. A decent s&m club could earn you 30 a night with out too much effort. Trust me, Karma is the EASY part.

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds like a pretty silly power, then. Karma for watching something? 30 a *night*? Banned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Sounds like a pretty silly power, then. Karma for watching something? 30 a *night*? Banned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Its in streetmagic. Best of all, they can watch multiple people at once. Have 500 people in an orgy pit... well, profit. Needless to say they also CAN and often DO participate in the act, but it is not a requirement.

[Sephiroth]

Sucubi get to drain Karma by watching people have sex, and it causes no discomfort at all. Using this version of the power, its way easier to get away with then you might otherwise think. A force 20 spirit is about 160 karma just for the force, tack on another 40 to make it fairly flexable, and you're talking 200 each. A decent s&m club could earn you 30 a night with out too much effort. Trust me, Karma is the EASY part.

It does seem to exhaust the victim somewhat quickly, though. Which doesn't exactly invalidate my point, although getting the karma without exposing yourself would indeed be easier then.

[Mordinvan]

It does seem to exhaust the victim somewhat quickly, though. Which doesn't exactly invalidate my point, although getting the karma without exposing yourself would indeed be easier then.

You mean someone passes out after the best climax of their life?

Quick someone call 911!!! Johny just banged the hottest chick on the planet for an hour straight and then passed out!!!

Do you even see anyone paying any attention to that kind of call for help at all? Cause that sort of thing seems kinda normal in a place where drug fueled sex romps are the norm..... Just saying.

[phlapjack77]

It does seem to exhaust the victim somewhat quickly, though. Which doesn't exactly invalidate my point, although getting the karma without exposing yourself would indeed be easier then.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[The Jopp]

I think i know.

Very, very, VERY carefully.

[Neraph]

Sucubi get to drain Karma by watching people have sex, and it causes no discomfort at all. Using this version of the power, its way easier to get away with then you might otherwise think. A force 20 spirit is about 160 karma just for the force, tack on another 40 to make it fairly flexable, and you're talking 200 each. A decent s&m club could earn you 30 a night with out too much effort. Trust me, Karma is the EASY part.

Ok, but succubi cannot get Ally Spirit, which invalidates your example. In fact, there's no way whatsoever for a Player to get access to any of the karma drain powers without GM fiat. It takes GM fiat to allow players to Call spirits with the drain themselves, and that still does not allow any access of the Power for the Caller themself.

Karma remains a problem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ok, but succubi cannot get Ally Spirit, which invalidates your example. In fact, there's no way whatsoever for a Player to get access to any of the karma drain powers without GM fiat. It takes GM fiat to allow players to Call spirits with the drain themselves, and that still does not allow any access of the Power for the Caller themself.

Karma remains a problem.

Unless, of course, the Caller manages to negotiate a Pact with the Spirit so Called...
But still, GM Fiat... so yeah... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Ok, but succubi cannot get Ally Spirit, which invalidates your example. In fact, there's no way whatsoever for a Player to get access to any of the karma drain powers without GM fiat. It takes GM fiat to allow players to Call spirits with the drain themselves, and that still does not allow any access of the Power for the Caller themself.

Karma remains a problem.

Ah, this is where you are wrong. A succubi can be banished and then bound, or the PC can strike a bargin with it for the spirit pact. The succubi can then either use its Karma drain power, and then through the abuse of endowment allow the mage access to the power to get the Karma from it, or simply grant the mage the power, so that they can use it straight off. At which point because of the abuse of endowment, the mage could then allow his spirits the use of the power....

[Darkeus]

Actually it is not impossible. You can have as many Ally Spirits as you want, at as high a Force as you can pay. The problem with this scenario is available karma and making sure no-one catches on.

Both of those are monumental tasks, however.

That is splitting hairs. It is virtually impossible to accomplish such a task, no matter how much you try to shoehorn it into the rules.

It all requires the GM to approve this stuff anyway so....

[Dumori]

That is splitting hairs. It is virtually impossible to accomplish such a task, no matter how much you try to shoehorn it into the rules.

It all requires the GM to approve this stuff anyway so....

Yeah but in SR GM approval is stated for every dice roll and for you to exist RAW so its a weak argument against the hypothetical.

[sabs]

so what we're saying is..
If he GM is stupid.. it's doable.

[Neraph]

Ah, this is where you are wrong. A succubi can be banished and then bound, or the PC can strike a bargin with it for the spirit pact. The succubi can then either use its Karma drain power, and then through the abuse of endowment allow the mage access to the power to get the Karma from it, or simply grant the mage the power, so that they can use it straight off. At which point because of the abuse of endowment, the mage could then allow his spirits the use of the power....

Actually, only Great Form Task and Guardain spirits have Endowment, and only certain Free Spirits have Spirit Pacts. Again, it would take GM-fiat for either of those scenarios to work.

[sabs]

And Toxic Spirits can be created by the Gm with any powers that they see fit. Which is of course, GM Fiat again. But they seem to keep on going back to open-ended GM rules for creating opponents for the players, and wanting to use those to create some monstrosity and call it "RAW no REALLY".

[Mordinvan]

Actually, only Great Form Task and Guardain spirits have Endowment, and only certain Free Spirits have Spirit Pacts. Again, it would take GM-fiat for either of those scenarios to work.

Right.... I banish and bind a succubi, and then have another spirit who's greatform allows for endowment. Its really not that complicated.