How would you inhabit a Dragon? Options

[Yerameyahu]

A succubus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Sprits can Endow powers from *other* things?

[Darkeus]

Yeah but in SR GM approval is stated for every dice roll and for you to exist RAW so its a weak argument against the hypothetical.

Which leads us right back to "virtually impossible" since no Shadowrun GM worth his salt would ever allow this!!!!

Good GM's = less crazy games.

Unless that is exactly what you are shooting for. If so, by all means, do it to it.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mordinvan]

A succubus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Sprits can Endow powers from *other* things?

No, it's more like the endowment spirit gives the sucubus endowment, and it gives that ability to you. Then you're endowment spirit gives you endowment, and you give karma drain to your army of minions to collect the karma for you. The only point of GM fiat required is for the succubus to enter the campaign in the first place.

[Yerameyahu]

Interesting. You'd think that Endowing Endowment wouldn't work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree that it does by the RAW, just offering an opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

Interesting. You'd think that Endowing Endowment wouldn't work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree that it does by the RAW, just offering an opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Endowing Endowment is SR's Sarrukh.

Fortunately, I have been informed, that any given target can only be subject to one Endowment at a time.

[Yerameyahu]

That, and I would expect the total number of Endowed Powers to max out at the *original* Great Form's Magic rating (no army of minions). As if that was the biggest problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

How easy is it to get 5 net hits on Invoking, anyway? Seems like a nontrivial component of this exercise.

[Mordinvan]

That, and I would expect the total number of Endowed Powers to max out at the *original* Great Form's Magic rating (no army of minions). As if that was the biggest problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

How easy is it to get 5 net hits on Invoking, anyway? Seems like a nontrivial component of this exercise.

Against a low force spirit, its far easier then a high force one.

[Neraph]

Right.... I banish and bind a succubi, and then have another spirit who's greatform allows for endowment. Its really not that complicated.

Yes, but that succubi does not neccessarily have a Spirit Pact, much less the Power Pact in specific.

Fortunately, I have been informed, that any given target can only be subject to one Endowment at a time.

/agree. Stated in the Endowment Power.

[Mordinvan]

Yes, but that succubi does not neccessarily have a Spirit Pact, much less the Power Pact in specific.

Not needed, as when it is granted the endowment power, it can then grant Karma drain to others.

/agree. Stated in the Endowment Power.

Yes, however this is one of those 'failings of the enligsh language' moments, as it can also mean each character can receive 1 power/spirit.

[Draco18s]

Endowment says

Endowment
Type:M • Action:Complex • Range:Touch • Duration: Sustained
The spirit grants the use of one of its powers to the subject.
The spirit does not lose the use of the power while the subject
gains it, and the spirit can grant a power to a number of subjects
equal to twice its Magic. No character may gain more than one
power from a spirit in this way at a time.

Exactly that. [Magic] number of people can receive 1 power, total each, at any given time.

So a force 6 spirit can give 6 people one of its powers (need not be the same) but additional spirits can only give more people powers.

[Mordinvan]

Endowment says



Exactly that. [Magic] number of people can receive 1 power, total each, at any given time.

So a force 6 spirit can give 6 people one of its powers (need not be the same) but additional spirits can only give more people powers.

I agree each spirit can only give each person one power, but the power "may" be read as each person can get multiple powers so long as each one is from a different spirit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree each spirit can only give each person one power, but the power "may" be read as each person can get multiple powers so long as each one is from a different spirit.

If there are multiple ways to interpret an ability, then you should choose the one that provides the least amount of craziness within the rules set...

[Mordinvan]

If there are multiple ways to interpret an ability, then you should choose the one that provides the least amount of craziness within the rules set...

I try to go for the one that makes the most sense. The way the rule reads, there is a significant problem with it, in that if something endows endowment to a nonspirit, that nonspirit can then endow all of its abilities to something else.

[sabs]

endowing endow is alot like endowing sapience.

It's weird and doesn't make alot of sense.

[Mordinvan]

endowing endow is alot like endowing sapience.

It's weird and doesn't make alot of sense.

oh, but its 'magic' right? That's what everyone keeps telling me.

[sabs]

oh, but its 'magic' right? That's what everyone keeps telling me.

Yeah yeah.. it's still weird.

Sapience and Endowment shouldn't be 'powers' they should be 'traits'

[darthmord]

Yes but, as D&D taught us, if you publish stats then you have a guide to kill it. Have you ever heard of anyone killing the Lady of Pain? You can't because her stats don't exist. In a campaign I was in, I killed Vecna in 1 round, and I even missed with one of my attacks. The reason I was able to do that is because he has stats. Also, if you have Dieties and Demigods, go look at Imhotep. You don't even have to be level 20 to kill that diety.

My point being, the Great dragon stats that we have makes them killable. The dragon stats that we have makes them killable. The great dragons who have names and no stats remain unkillable, because their attributes lay in the realm of imagination - they don't exist.

Ghostwalker has published stats in the Denver missions campaign. He's also got a bunch of spells on him all the time. Something like Force 24 or so. In the end, the spells about double his normal stats which iirc are the GD stats listed in the BBB plus a bonus.

He's fairly tough as written. Killable? Yes but you'd need a metric crapload (or ten) of firepower and preparation to pulll it off.

[darthmord]

The GM can allow you to be a Great Dragon if he wants - but the rules assume that he's aiming for a semblance of balance and sanity.

There is that partial gag ruleset from an old April Fools day for playing a full fledged dragon...

[Mordinvan]

There is that partial gag ruleset from an old April Fools day for playing a full fledged dragon...

I think the dragons from that joke section aren't all that bad really.

[Neraph]

oh, but its 'magic' right? That's what everyone keeps telling me.

MAGIC!

[Draco18s]

I think the dragons from that joke section aren't all that bad really.

They're more powerful than any of the other races, kinda get magic for free (eg. no need to be a "mage" you already are), and have some other options, but yes. Generally speaking they're pretty much in line with everything else that's been published: very strong, but also very BP heavy (less so than a free spirit, IIRC).

[Neraph]

More than a free spirit.

A free spirit is 250 BP for F2, and depending on your reading of the rules (as I've pointed out and we've stalemated), possibly raising their Force raises all their other attributes. Maybe not, YMMV.

The cheapest dragon is 300 BP for stats higher than a troll's and a Magic of 6. Those stats are higher than many min-maxed characters will have at all, and even if a min-maxed elf gets a higher Agility than your dragon, the rest of your attributes will be significantly higher.

[Mordinvan]

More than a free spirit.

A free spirit is 250 BP for F2, and depending on your reading of the rules (as I've pointed out and we've stalemated), possibly raising their Force raises all their other attributes. Maybe not, YMMV.

The cheapest dragon is 300 BP for stats higher than a troll's and a Magic of 6. Those stats are higher than many min-maxed characters will have at all, and even if a min-maxed elf gets a higher Agility than your dragon, the rest of your attributes will be significantly higher.

Yes, but you will have no skills, or spells when you're done making your character. You're effectively the draconic equivalent of an infant.

[Neraph]

You still have 100 BP for skills, spells, and gear. That's more than enough.

Interestingly, those rules say that dragons use Shapechange for the (Human) Form trick. /shrug.

[darthmord]

I think the dragons from that joke section aren't all that bad really.

I'd love for those section to actually get completed. I'd like to see how it turns out and perhaps build NPC dragons (for future gaming sessions) to follow those rules.

Neraph, perhaps there was supposed to be a note for Shapechange that exempts Dragons from some of the limits so they can use it for taking on a metahuman form. Who knows...