[X] My Assistant

[Mooncrow]

where do I break the rules pray tell?

You mean aside from where we discussed last time? Like letting your character be a toxic mage with self-designed spirit powers?

[TommyTwoToes]

If D is a toxic mage, why not?

But he isn't.

[Doc Chase]

Please point out the book and page number on caps on ally spirits.. I am looking for such official limits myself...

Unless someone else has their copies of the hymnal and SM on hand, you'll have to wait.

[TommyTwoToes]

Unless someone else has their copies of the hymnal and SM on hand, you'll have to wait.

The limit is on Karma available, and no one has enough. The reverse Karma drain thing doesn't work they way he wants it to (as discussed in the other thread).

[Doc Chase]

Do me a solid: Ally spirit advancement. What's the karma cost to bind, and what's it to advance?

Is it *8 across the board, or am I thinking of something else?

[Mooncrow]

Do me a solid: Ally spirit advancement. What's the karma cost to bind, and what's it to advance?

Is it *8 across the board, or am I thinking of something else?

8 per force to build, 16 per force to advance.

[Doc Chase]

8 per force to build, 16 per force to advance.

What's the limits on building? I have a hard time believing that they can whip up a 20 force with a Magic of 6.

[sabs]

BTW
Why do we humor his obviously fanciful munchkin rantings?

[Mordinvan]

8 per force to build, 16 per force to advance.

I just don't recall karma drain being a power available to ally spirits of any tradition. I could be wrong, but I do remember looking and not seeing it.

[Doc Chase]

BTW
Why do we humor his obviously fanciful munchkin rantings?

Dude, I am bored. It is either this or I match invoices to containers for customs filing, and I already have to come in on Labor Day to, uh...labor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Neraph]

Actually, I want to inhabit a minimum of 5 Great Dragons and another minimum of 100 normal Dragons. Can the munchkins see where I am going with this? LOL..

I was with you until I saw this. Now I want to build a 400 BP character to kill your character in your own game (and I can). Capturing one normal dragon and having it inhabited is possible, albeit difficult, but surely you'd be found out after the second (if you survive the second), and definately before you have enough mojo to worry about a Great.

Although I don't like how so many people talk about how Greats are so powerful.. I mean they only have like 12 magic tops in the book. The best thing Shadowrun writers have done is not publish stats for the things they don't want killed - what doesn't have stats can't die, as D&D taught us. I can build a 400 BP character that can go toe to toe with a normal dragon, and arguably a Great as written in the books, but I'd not try it. It's much easier to find drakes and have them inhabited. A troll western drake is nearly the same size as a normal dragon, I'd imagine, or at least big enough for you to ride anyways.

[Neraph]

I just don't recall karma drain being a power available to ally spirits of any tradition. I could be wrong, but I do remember looking and not seeing it.

This is true. What the person did was ascribe a GM-Fiat only power to standard Ally Spirits.

[V-Origin]

For the last time..

it is possible to play a toxic mage who is "grey" and not "entirely black"

and spirit design rules in SM allow you to design the type of toxic spirits which you want for your own toxic traditions

i will start a toxic mage thread in the near future

[Mooncrow]

I just don't recall karma drain being a power available to ally spirits of any tradition. I could be wrong, but I do remember looking and not seeing it.

It's from the Toxic Mage thing where it's powers are "left to the individual gamemaster to adapt".


Of course, that would assume that Toxics are playable, and that the GM let him pick whatever powers he wants.

And I'm always bored. It's this or start drinking early^^

[TommyTwoToes]

For the last time..

it is possible to play a toxic mage who is "grey" and not "entirely black"

Wrong

[V-Origin]

Wrong

I look forward to your contributions in my soon-to-appear toxic mage thread but not here please

[Mooncrow]

Although I don't like how so many people talk about how Greats are so powerful.. I mean they only have like 12 magic tops in the book.

Actually, the stats in the book are the minimums for a Great: so Masaru or Arleesh maybe. The established ones are much, much higher. I think Celedyr had his stats published once, and his magic was something like 25. That's not even considering the really big boys like Lofwyr or Ghostwalker.

[Neraph]

I thought I already had a thread on "grey" toxics. Also, toxics are playable because there's a sample tradition for them in Street Magic, I think. And lastly, I don't think you can give Free Spirit special Powers to standard summonable spirits for a tradition. If you can, I will be making all my own traditions from this day forth.

[Mooncrow]

I thought I already had a thread on "grey" toxics. Also, toxics are playable because there's a sample tradition for them in Street Magic, I think. And lastly, I don't think you can give Free Spirit special Powers to standard summonable spirits for a tradition. If you can, I will be making all my own traditions from this day forth.

Actually, it's clear that the Toxic traditions presented are not meant as playable characters, something that incensed one of the writers in fact. He wanted to make them available as player choices and make them somewhat balanced. But they aren't and they aren't.

[sabs]

Well, If you look at the Great Dragon stats from Earthdawn and do some extrapolations.

A Great Dragon should be sitting at something like:

somewhere between 24-36 magic (either a 12 or 18 regular magic score, and then another 12-18 initiate levels)
Sorcery skill of 12

Stats in the high teens, low 20's
Twist Fate Power
Adept powers, spells, blood magic rituals, contingency spells.
They have threading, which means they could have threaded their counter-spelling, or banishing. So that they're throwing around 40-50 dice for those pools.

Although if a player tried this in one of my games.. well he wouldn't even get this close, because he'd never in a million years have that many Ally Spirits doing weird inhabitation things.

Isn't this what the Invae tried to do? during the Universal Brotherhood Plot line?

[Neraph]

Actually, the stats in the book are the minimums for a Great: so Masaru or Arleesh maybe. The established ones are much, much higher. I think Celedyr had his stats published once, and his magic was something like 25. That's not even considering the really big boys like Lofwyr or Ghostwalker.

Yes but, as D&D taught us, if you publish stats then you have a guide to kill it. Have you ever heard of anyone killing the Lady of Pain? You can't because her stats don't exist. In a campaign I was in, I killed Vecna in 1 round, and I even missed with one of my attacks. The reason I was able to do that is because he has stats. Also, if you have Dieties and Demigods, go look at Imhotep. You don't even have to be level 20 to kill that diety.

My point being, the Great dragon stats that we have makes them killable. The dragon stats that we have makes them killable. The great dragons who have names and no stats remain unkillable, because their attributes lay in the realm of imagination - they don't exist.

[Doc Chase]

And I'm always bored. It's this or start drinking early^^

*cough* That was me, yesterday. It's hard to say no when the boss drags you downstairs and puts a beer in your hand so the floor can toast the accomplishments over the past quarter.

[Neraph]

Isn't this what the Invae tried to do? during the Universal Brotherhood Plot line?

Agreed. This is more outside the realm of a player and more inside the realm of a metaplot for a new Insect Hive.

Also, a player could conceivably get something like this by doing an Inhabitation of one of the drakkan or whatevers, the other dracoforms, from Running Wild.

[Doc Chase]

Agreed. This is more outside the realm of a player and more inside the realm of a metaplot for a new Insect Hive.

Also, a player could conceivably get something like this by doing an Inhabitation of one of the drakkan or whatevers, the other dracoforms, from Running Wild.

Ner - are the posted stats for the dracoform, or the Great Dragon's stats themselves? I remember Survival of the Fittest flat out said that if the runners were going to try to go toe to toe with a great, they were gibbed with no rolls and no mercy. When I looked at the stats for these yesterday, I got the sense that they were for the non-great dracoform variety.

[Mooncrow]

Yes but, as D&D taught us, if you publish stats then you have a guide to kill it. Have you ever heard of anyone killing the Lady of Pain? You can't because her stats don't exist. In a campaign I was in, I killed Vecna in 1 round, and I even missed with one of my attacks. The reason I was able to do that is because he has stats. Also, if you have Dieties and Demigods, go look at Imhotep. You don't even have to be level 20 to kill that diety.

My point being, the Great dragon stats that we have makes them killable. The dragon stats that we have makes them killable. The great dragons who have names and no stats remain unkillable, because their attributes lay in the realm of imagination - they don't exist.

Oh I hear your point loud and clear, and I agree. Just pointing out that most of them do have stats of "unknown" =)