[X] My Assistant

[sabs]

I miss the days where Vehicle Armor and Body was different from Metahuman.

A Rail Gun. Should be doing 30P -20AP
A Main Tank weapon: ~20P -15AP

[CanRay]

I don't think they were intending on us to steal tanks in Seattle.

Why not? My group has commented on wanting to raid the Supercarrier for a jet to pawn.

[Doc Chase]

Why not? My group has commented on wanting to raid the Supercarrier for a jet to pawn.

Yeah, but the Supercarrier doesn't have tanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I just think it changes the scope of the game. What kind of job has you going up against a tank?

(well, besides the one already provided (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

I think in most cases military ordnance is left to the...military.

[TommyTwoToes]

Yeah, but the Supercarrier doesn't have tanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I just think it changes the scope of the game. What kind of job has you going up against a tank?

(well, besides the one already provided (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

I think in most cases military ordnance is left to the...military.

Its possible that tanks are going by the wayside. They have added vulnerabilities in SR4, any spirit materializing inside the crew compartment, hacking their net connection, carbombs...

In the absence of the Cold War era Superpowers, smaller militaries focused on police actions and covert ops are more likely. In fact the likelyhood of anyone maintaining huge money hungry items like a Supercarrier are also pretty small. Where is the profit, unless you are running a protection racket?

When the other side potentially has Thor shots available, rolling out a couple hundred T-72's doesn't make sense. Going through the design process for a MBT when you are only going to build a hundred or so isn't very cost effective, especially with the rate of technological advancement.

[Runner Smurf]

Uh-oh, somebody started asking the big questions about how viable tanks are on the battlefield of 2070. A reasonable question, but the various sourcebooks have made it clear that such things do exist, even if they haven't always statted them out. Yes, a wreck vehicle spell or spirit could ruin a tank's whole day, but that's why I think that magical countermeasures would be fairly common at the brigade level during major combat operations.

As for cost effectiveness, the number built is an order of magnitude higher than 100 - maybe even 2 orders. The number of M1s built, by wikipedia, is over 9,000. Over 25,000 T-72s have been built. Going by current development cycles, we're probably looking at one or two generations ahead of current vehicles by 2070, and while the numbers may be reduced, I still think it's enough to justify. Hell look at how much the US spent on 200 F-22s...

[Doc Chase]

That's also what I was thinking. Get a platoon with enough cyber and they just might get to your tank and rip the top off before your crew can track and fire.


On the other hand, we do have LAV's/T-birds, which are typically used in a 'light armor' role which implies there's heavy armor somewhere along the line.

[CanRay]

Well, they probably get a lot of work in Desert Wars.

Rolling lines of MBTs would be great for ratings!

[Sengir]

Assuming advances in weapon loading technology, I would imagine that the turrets are both quite low profile, flatter than the typical modern turret.

Remember that the turret height also determines how far a vehicle can depress its gun, which in turn determines how far the tank will be exposed in hull-down position. So far the western design philosophy has been that the better use of cover offsets the disadvantages a larger silhouette brings when in the open, the Russians have reached the opposite conclusion.

[sabs]

That's also what I was thinking. Get a platoon with enough cyber and they just might get to your tank and rip the top off before your crew can track and fire.


On the other hand, we do have LAV's/T-birds, which are typically used in a 'light armor' role which implies there's heavy armor somewhere along the line.

In ww2, when it was possible that a platoon of groundpounders could take out tanks. (satchel bombs, flame throwers) tanks that were going to engage ground units often had a platoon on their side as well, providing ground support against just such attacks.

I could see a group of tanks with a platoon attached to it.

[TommyTwoToes]

In ww2, when it was possible that a platoon of groundpounders could take out tanks. (satchel bombs, flame throwers) tanks that were going to engage ground units often had a platoon on their side as well, providing ground support against just such attacks.

I could see a group of tanks with a platoon attached to it.

First you need cybered trolls with raptor legs, then you get gnomes with those magnetic graple feet clamped onto the Troll's shoulders. Each gnome has a backpack of satchel charges, and the Troll just does full defense actions while he runs at the tank.

[sabs]

First you need cybered trolls with raptor legs, then you get gnomes with those magnetic graple feet clamped onto the Troll's shoulders. Each gnome has a backpack of satchel charges, and the Troll just does full defense actions while he runs at the tank.

heee

Okay that's funny..
Silly
but funny

[Doc Chase]

In ww2, when it was possible that a platoon of groundpounders could take out tanks. (satchel bombs, flame throwers) tanks that were going to engage ground units often had a platoon on their side as well, providing ground support against just such attacks.

I could see a group of tanks with a platoon attached to it.

Tanks are always supposed to have a platoon with it - but they can still lose a tread to an IED or a well-placed RPG shot.

[Sengir]

Just do it the Battletech way, five elementals against one vehicle. Ony with a different kind of elemental...

[sabs]

Tanks are always supposed to have a platoon with it - but they can still lose a tread to an IED or a well-placed RPG shot.

Sure
He was saying.. Tanks aren't viable because you throw a platoon of cyber/magic guys at it.
I was just saying.. we've had the equivalent in the past, and the Military handled it.

Tanks aren't indestructible.
They're not unbeatable.
They're just tough, mobile, and provide a nice punch.

[Doc Chase]

Sure
He was saying.. Tanks aren't viable because you throw a platoon of cyber/magic guys at it.
I was just saying.. we've had the equivalent in the past, and the Military handled it.

Tanks aren't indestructible.
They're not unbeatable.
They're just tough, mobile, and provide a nice punch.

Right right. Throw a squad of cyber/mages at it, and find their own support squad there, possibly with magical support. It's hard to say whether or not the OPFOR would have magic in the first place if it was standard military vs. standard military based off the 'rarity' of magical talent in the world, let alone the armed forces, but...eh. I'd think the UCAS/CAS has been working like gangbusters to come up with a semieffective countermeasure/protection to magic for their armor.

[sabs]

Right right. Throw a squad of cyber/mages at it, and find their own support squad there, possibly with magical support. It's hard to say whether or not the OPFOR would have magic in the first place if it was standard military vs. standard military based off the 'rarity' of magical talent in the world, let alone the armed forces, but...eh. I'd think the UCAS/CAS has been working like gangbusters to come up with a semieffective countermeasure/protection to magic for their armor.

Given that one of their neighbors is a primarily Magical Force who has shown willingness to commit genocide to get their way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I would imagine that magical talent into their military.. is a priority.

[Mayhem_2006]

Good point on the cannons - I forgot about those. And now that I look at them, I really want to groan. The writers didn't do a particularly good job thinking those through.

Don't forget that presumably the cannons shown are "standard ammo" - what happens to the stats when you load them up with hi-ex or Armour peircing?

[Doc Chase]

Given that one of their neighbors is a primarily Magical Force who has shown willingness to commit genocide to get their way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I would imagine that magical talent into their military.. is a priority.

Oh, indeed! However, with the Rift right there in DeeCee and DIMR/DF paying top dollar...How many are staying in the military?

[Yerameyahu]

Runner Smurf: 1) Agreed, SR4 and vehicles seems half-assed, and I loved Rigger 3; 2) I think you forgot to halve armor with the Gauss, not that it really changes your point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mayhem_2006: I meant that a tank has no business with an anti-missile system derived from aircraft carriers; it uses a network of multiple laser/machine-gun turrets to intercept missiles. I'm not saying it's impossible to *build* on a smaller vehicle, just that it doesn't make sense for a tank to be designed with it.

[sabs]

Runner Smurf: 1) Agreed, SR4 and vehicles seems half-assed, and I loved Rigger 3; 2) I think you forgot to halve armor with the Gauss, not that it really changes your point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mayhem_2006: I meant that a tank has no business with an anti-missile system derived from aircraft carriers; it uses a network of multiple laser/machine-gun turrets to intercept missiles. I'm not saying it's impossible to *build* on a smaller vehicle, just that it doesn't make sense for a tank to be designed with it.

I could see a tank having "chaff" counter measures. But only a couple of rounds worth.

[Doc Chase]

You could always justify a cannon's crappy DV with reactive armor.

[Warlordtheft]

I'm not saying it's impossible to *build* on a smaller vehicle, just that it doesn't make sense for a tank to be designed with it.

Actually there are some groups working on just that. One of the key issues though is the software and collateral damage to your own forces (such as when your own infantry are nearby). SImilar situation as to reactive armors (the armor that explodes to deflect the blast).

Recalling from a thread a year or so ago IMHO an MBT would have:

Warding, or other protective magical defenses.
An active missle defense system (like metal storm)
Remote MG turrets and main turret.
Tracked or an LAV.
A couple of drone racks for arial and ground recon.
Rigger control.

Armor (depending on the state of the armor vs anti-tank weapon race) could well be in the mid 30's with a body of 30.

at 60 dice, alot of damage is shrugged off. Also keep in mind the armor penetration rules.

Judging by the books

[Yerameyahu]

Agreed. I just wanted to make it clear that I was speaking, as it were, about fluff instead of crunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It really depends on the scale: 6-12 auto/laser turrets on a tank (in addition to the actual armaments) is excessive, but 2-3 dedicated anti-rocket units? Not excessive. Are you referring to that Israeli vehicular anti-rocket thing?

[TommyTwoToes]

Agreed. I just wanted to make it clear that I was speaking, as it were, about fluff instead of crunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It really depends on the scale: 6-12 auto/laser turrets on a tank (in addition to the actual armaments) is excessive, but 2-3 dedicated anti-rocket units? Not excessive. Are you referring to that Israeli vehicular anti-rocket thing?

Isn't one of the Metal Storm proposals for an anti missle system using .22 cal rounds?

I seem to remember another abomination that would throw something like 100,000 gernades into the area of a football field (in some rediculously small timeframe, like 1 second) that would overload the structure of tanks by vibrating their components apart. Seems kind of silly and how many times could a tank do that, but the tech is still new.

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds right to me, Tommy, but I'm reserving comment on anything Metal Storm until it actually (if ever) exists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is what I mentioned, I think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_active_protection_system
Whereas the MDS is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS