[X] My Assistant

[Kruger]

Right right. Throw a squad of cyber/mages at it, and find their own support squad there, possibly with magical support. It's hard to say whether or not the OPFOR would have magic in the first place if it was standard military vs. standard military based off the 'rarity' of magical talent in the world, let alone the armed forces, but...eh. I'd think the UCAS/CAS has been working like gangbusters to come up with a semieffective countermeasure/protection to magic for their armor.

How effective would most common magic be a against a main battle tank thought?

It's got incredible mass, incredibly thick armor, a sealed crew compartment, and crew that are concealed from line of sight. I mean, magic can do a lot in Shadowrun, but most spells are going to be as useful as small arms. The best tactic for magicians would be the same as for regular grunts. Mobility kills and then attempting to close to exploit the weaknesses.

[Doc Chase]

If you can toss up an earth elemental to quicksand its treads or have a fire spirit get close enough to melt a weak point, something might happen. Barring that, Invis or improved invis to sneak your way into range close enough to plant an explosive on the back of the turret. Should cook off somethin'.

[CanRay]

Unless the tank has a mana barrier around it to prevent an Astral Entity (Spirit, magician, whatever) from entering it and being able to see everyone, it's dead meat to magic.

The flipside is that you can mass produce tanks, you can't do that for Magicians. That, and a spirit or five ordered to protect a column of tanks can protect them against Astral Assaults.

IIRC, however, the role of tanks is to get stuck and for Infantry to get heroic to save them. Of course, I heard that from an Infantryman, so the theory might be biased.

[Doc Chase]

IIRC, however, the role of tanks is to get stuck and for Infantry to get heroic to save them. Of course, I heard that from an Infantryman, so the theory might be biased.

Signalers tell me the role of tanks is to be too far forward when the artillery comes down.

But they say that about everybody.

[sabs]

What can a Astral Projecting Mage do to the tank?
He can't cast spells in the Physical.
Unless he Manifests? maybe? And then he's inside close quarters and someone shoots him in the head.

[CanRay]

In the tight confines of a tank?

Admittedly, I've never been in one, but to my understanding, they don't have the legroom of your typical Buick...

[Doc Chase]

IIRC, tankers are usually packing Berettas and one or two PDW's like a UMP .45 or a M4 carbine.

If it's a rigged tank...May only be one dude in there. I'm not sure.

[TommyTwoToes]

If you can toss up an earth elemental to quicksand its treads or have a fire spirit get close enough to melt a weak point, something might happen. Barring that, Invis or improved invis to sneak your way into range close enough to plant an explosive on the back of the turret. Should cook off somethin'.

Powerbolt doesn't care about the mass of the tank or it's body. It just rolls against object resistance. It has no signature and is LOS.

The fire elemental doesn't need to burn through the tank, just materialize in the ammo compartment, or engulf the crew. The tank crew probably won't have heavy enough sidearms to kill even a small elemental.

Glue (the spell) can lock the turret, treads and guns into place since the parts cannot rotate without dealing catastrophic damage to the tank.

A physical barrier cast across the muzzel of the main gun can cause the main gun to have something awful happen, what happens when the barrel is obstructed even breifly?

[CanRay]

"Um, why is there no one in this tank?" "Nobody here, either." "Nope." "I got someone! Hey, where's the rest of your unit?" "I'm it. Cutbacks. I had to control all of these tanks by myself."

[Kruger]

If you can toss up an earth elemental to quicksand its treads or have a fire spirit get close enough to melt a weak point, something might happen. Barring that, Invis or improved invis to sneak your way into range close enough to plant an explosive on the back of the turret. Should cook off somethin'.

The earth elemental was what I was referring to. Getting a tank stuck is all too common. Easier so when you have magic to help you make things more difficult. On the other hand the tank is going to be surprisingly resistant to heat based attacks unless you determine the fire elemental can produce extraordinarily high temperatures. Could possibly use an elemental to try and kill the engine. Dunno, magic in Shadowurn seems to have become a do-all, so I take it back. A mage should be able to conjure up some kind of power to beat a tank.

[sabs]

Remember you need Force 6 spells to effect Tanks.
Force 5 will literally just bounce off.

[Kruger]

In the tight confines of a tank?

Admittedly, I've never been in one, but to my understanding, they don't have the legroom of your typical Buick...

Well, there's a fair amount of space right behind the breech typically. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Doc Chase]

The earth elemental was what I was referring to. Getting a tank stuck is all too common. Easier so when you have magic to help you make things more difficult. On the other hand the tank is going to be surprisingly resistant to heat based attacks unless you determine the fire elemental can produce extraordinarily high temperatures. Could possibly use an elemental to try and kill the engine. Dunno, magic in Shadowurn seems to have become a do-all, so I take it back. A mage should be able to conjure up some kind of power to beat a tank.

I prefer mines over matter. Where there is a magical solution, I've found, there can also be a technical one. And vice versa, of course.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

Well, there's a fair amount of space right behind the breech typically. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That's because the breech is not a place you want to be behind.

[Warlordtheft]

How effective would most common magic be a against a main battle tank thought?

It's got incredible mass, incredibly thick armor, a sealed crew compartment, and crew that are concealed from line of sight. I mean, magic can do a lot in Shadowrun, but most spells are going to be as useful as small arms. The best tactic for magicians would be the same as for regular grunts. Mobility kills and then attempting to close to exploit the weaknesses.

Well, at OR6 (but is it OR6?, GM call here)--a mage can cast wreck vehicle on it. Thus bypasing all that armor and such.

[Dragonscript]

The thing about most military equipment is that it tends to be in use for a long time. The US M1 tank first came into service in 1980, and there are no foreseeable plans to replace it, so i could see this tank being used for over 50 years. The M16 was first used in 1960, and there are also no plans to replace that.

If your situation is that this is a third world country with an old tank, then it would something that was built/designed in the 2030s, if not earlier, so lets look at what the next generation of current tanks could look like. First, tanks are going to get smaller instead of larger, and this is for two reason. One, the crew requirements are going to be decreased and two, armor theory has changed. About the crew requirements, lets look at what each person does on a M1 Abrams. First you have the driver, who obviously drives the tank. Second, you have the gunner who aims and fires the cannon. Third, you have the loader who loads the cannon. Last, you have the commander, who chooses the targets and coordinates the other crew positions. With shadowrun technology, you can easily cut this crew requirement in half.

The reason there is a leader on a M1 is for two reasons. First, in the late 1970s, the US Army did not think autoloader technology advanced enough to be used. Even though the Russians had already started to use autoloader technology by this time, the US Army did not trust it just yet. The second reason was that the Army wanted that additional crew member to help out with any additional tasks, such as track replacement, refueling or rearming. With an atuoloader, you do not need this crew position.

The gunner is there to obviously fire the weapon, but even now the Army has been starting to field remote control turrets on their vehicles, like the Striker. I think it is the Russians who are experimenting with a new turret design that is controlled by the commander and would not require a gunner.

By removing these two crew positions you have several benefits. First, you would only need half as many people to man the same number of tanks, so your training requirements and personal cost are half of what they were. Second, you can now make the turret smaller, and thus make the tank as a whole harder to hit.

A decent, generation old tank would look something this:
You would have an armored crew compartment that serves as the main armor of the vehicle. The main gun would be in a small remote turret that would only encase the autoloader and breech. With only needing to protect the small crew compartment, instead of the whole tank, the armor overall would be thinner, with bolted on reactive armor covering an important parts. With all this weight reduction, the tank itself can be smaller, which would serve to make it harder to hit. With an rocket protection system, look at the Quick Kill active protection system, this vehicle would be able to handle itself on a future battlefield.

[Runner Smurf]

In response to Dragonscript:

Indeed, most military equipment lasts a very long time. Heck, the B-52 is currently planned to be operational up until Shadowrun started in 2050. And costs are going up. As a study concluded a while back, by current cost growth trends, in 2074 the US Military will be able to buy a single aircraft that will cost the entire budget for the year. This aircraft will have to be shared 3 and a half days a week between the Navy and the Air Force, with the Marines getting it for a day every four years. Alas, the F-22 and the F-35 haven't broken that trend. The Army and Navy are little better.

But, to be purely pedantic: There actually are plans to replace the M1A3 - Future Combat System was going to replace the M1, M2, M109 and others. It was cancelled recently (long story, good riddance), and the new project for the Manned Ground Vehicle (MGV) is in full swing...and is already delayed. The M16 is being replaced as well, with the M4 largely supplanting in current operations, and the XM-8 was under consideration to replace. So while the baseline systems are old, it would appear that an ~30-40 year generation cycle can be considered for most major systems.

With the disruptions of the Awakening, Years of Chaos, I think we could safely consider that the generation cycle would have been delayed, so we may have only had one major shift, with the second coming soon. By 2070, and considering the advanced electronics, the modern combat brigade is probably very much what FCS was aiming for: lots of drones, advanced tactical networks, and with an operational tempo that makes Blitzkrieg look lethargic.

That being said, I agree with you on trends. FCS's tank replacement was looking at a 2 man crew, and was aiming to be much lighter (1/2 the weight of the M1 was the target). The Active Protection System is the big one that doesn't really exist in SR4 - a rocket to shoot down incoming rockets. Impressive as hell (video). Even though they are going to be lighter, the RHA-equivalent isn't going to be that much lower than the M1, I think.

[CanRay]

Another thing to take into consideration about Tanks is fuel consumption.

Petrochem fuels are expensive, and the costs are only getting higher! And tanks drink more thank the Troll Wino on the corner. We're already in a world where some police forces don't have the petrol to investigate crime scenes... Not that far from not having enough diesel to run tanks. Multifuel engines will help, yes, but only so much.

[TommyTwoToes]

Another thing to take into consideration about Tanks is fuel consumption.

Petrochem fuels are expensive, and the costs are only getting higher! And tanks drink more thank the Troll Wino on the corner. We're already in a world where some police forces don't have the petrol to investigate crime scenes... Not that far from not having enough diesel to run tanks. Multifuel engines will help, yes, but only so much.

That is why we need mana engines.

[CanRay]

"OK, we got Mana Engines. Just stay away from that Mana Warp." "What mana..." *Chug-Chug-Krunch* "Oh, that one."

[TommyTwoToes]

"OK, we got Mana Engines. Just stay away from that Mana Warp." "What mana..." *Chug-Chug-Krunch* "Oh, that one."

"You know, we can get out of this Mana Warp, just need juice for about 30 seconds. Hey, Private Greenie - lay down on the engine block over here. No, this isn't a ritual knife."

"ArrggghhhhH!"

"See, no mana, no problem. Sorry Greenie. He was a pretty good trog."

[Mooncrow]

We just need to start painting all our tanks red.

[sabs]

The thing is.. in order to use magic on tanks. You need a 20-24 spellcasting dicepool, and minimum force 6 spells.
That's outside the range of most Shaman/Mages in the world.


So, I suspect that Magic's not as big a concern. Ghost Dance level magic? Yes, that's a problem. Going up against a Dragon.. also a problem. A squad of Shamans all with a Magic rating of 4 and a spellcating of 3/4 .. not likely they have the spell ability to just make that tank implode.

[CanRay]

A squad of Shamans all with a Magic rating of 4 and a spellcating of 3/4 .. not likely they have the spell ability to just make that tank implode.

No, but a good "Water" spell on the dirt beneath the tank, and you got a bogged down tank.

Which, from my understanding, is another term for "Pissed off pillbox".

Also, those Magicians might have Summoning as well at the same level. A Fire Elemental ordered to "Hug the tank" would destroy their external sensors (Or blind 'em real good.), and my group has already learned to fear Plant Spirits.

"The lawn got up and beat the drek out of us. True story."

[Notsoevildm]

not likely they have the spell ability to just make that tank implode.

You don't need to make the tank implode. Just have a low force fire elemental manifest inside the turret or driver's compartment and engulf the crew or set off the ammo. Crew get cooked or turned into chunky salsa. One tank less.