[X] My Assistant

[sabs]

Can spirits manifest somewhere where they have 0 line of sight?

[Warlordtheft]

Can spirits manifest somewhere where they have 0 line of sight?

Inanimate objects have no astral form, so they just pop their heads in the crew compartment. Viola-LOS!

[Dragonscript]

Runner Smurf:

I heard of that report but i think it is more tongue in cheek than anything else. Currently the F-35 is predicted to be the last mass produced manned fighter. Many experts are predicting that the "next big thing" in fighters will be the unmanned fighter, drones. This does not mean the end of the manned fighter, just that instead of several hundred being built, only a couple dozen of each model will be bought. When you remove the manned portion of an aircraft, you can make them much smaller and cheaper.

While the MGV and Future Combat System have been researched, they both were far from producing any vehicles, thus the reason for the M1A3 upgrade that is currently planned. The M1 family is predicted the be in service with the army until 2050. The BCT Ground Combat Vehicle Program is expected to replace many Army vehicles, but the first prototypes are not expected until at least 2015, with the first production vehicles in 2017. Lets be honest, with the military it would easy to add at least 5 to 10 years to those dates, if it even happens like they predict. I expect there will be an A4 & A5 mod to the M1 before they are completely replaced.

The M4 is just a smaller M16, and the only serious considerations for replacement are for upgrades like the M416 or the SCAR, which the biggest change is moving from a gas system to a piston system, but they are evolutions instead of whole system replacements, like when the M16 replaced the M14. The next major change is going to be the move to caseless ammo, or maybe a move to the 6.5 grendel or 6.8 SPC, but i doubt it.

I agree that the development cycle would be interrupted, but the Awakening have less effect than golbinization. We would see one more generation of our current mentality with combat vehicles then a quicker development cycle of first generation vehicles that took the new body forms, geopolitical realities and magic into consideration. The 2070s would see the introduction of the second generation of post Awakening combat vehicles.


CanRay

If I remember correctly, one aspect of the JLTV program is to have the vehicle use an electric motor and have, right now anyway, a diesel engine to work as a generator to provide the power, so that in the future it could be replaced with any new types of engines, like hydrogen. This thought process is also being applied to any new armored vehicles that are being developed, that way you can have the jet turbine engine in when you need the speed of fast combat or the diesel engine when you are providing peace keeping. The M1A2 is a great tank, but it requires too much fuel and in its current roles in Iraq and Afghanistan, a diesel engine would be better.

[hobgoblin]

You could always justify a cannon's crappy DV with reactive armor.

Or thanks to SR not having any kind of facing or hit zone rules, crappy armor could come from averaging the strongest with the weakest.

[Doc Chase]

Or thanks to SR not having any kind of facing or hit zone rules, crappy armor could come from averaging the strongest with the weakest.

Hooray! Weak points averted!

[Kruger]

A Fire Elemental ordered to "Hug the tank" would destroy their external sensors (Or blind 'em real good.),

All depends. One would imagine that the external sensors would be shielded. A lot of the sensor systems wouldn't be too terribly affected by transparent aluminum casings, and some of them, like ultrasound, would see right through the flames.

Still doesn't stop the "Win Button" (which magic always seems to have in Shadowrun) of manifestation inside the tank unless the tank is shielded or spirits are unable to manifest in an area that isn't big enough to contain their physical form.

[Yerameyahu]

The Outlaw Block III and V anti-tank missile have a 'target weak point' effect, but you have to roll really well for it to come into play.

[CanRay]

Still doesn't stop the "Win Button" (which magic always seems to have in Shadowrun)...

Which is why the first rule of combat is "Geek the mage first."

And, I have to admit, tanks can do it better than "Boots on the ground" as they have that nice, big cannon, probably loaded with more hi-ex rounds than armour-piercers now because of this problem.

[Mayhem_2006]

So, what would be the most cost-effective way of protecting a tank from a mage/spirit?

[Rastus]

So, what would be the most cost-effective way of protecting a tank from a mage/spirit?

Shoot them with the main cannon before they can make a move. A GM heavy cannon does 17P/-8AP which could easily ruin a F:12 spirit and it even has a blast radius of -1/m. Costs about as much as one 105mm shell. It's cheap, efficient, and fun! Not foolproof though.

Seriously though, for all this talk about spirits manifesting in the crew compartment as a win button, has nobody thought about assigning a spirit or two to each tank, leaving them with standing orders to locate and attack any magical threats to said tank? After all, what does summoning and binding cost? Mostly just stun(or physical, if willing)damage as the worst of it, and that can be taken care of long before the mage that did the summoning needs to go into the field for whatever reason. And let's face it, if you're a bad enough dude army to have a few MBT's, you probably got a mage or two for this kind of thing, or at least have enough money to rent a few merc mages.

[Manunancy]

Still doesn't stop the "Win Button" (which magic always seems to have in Shadowrun) of manifestation inside the tank unless the tank is shielded or spirits are unable to manifest in an area that isn't big enough to contain their physical form.

In my opinion a spirit can manifest with parts of itself inside the and some out - a manifestation being basically an image and the sprit still remain ing mostly on the astral plane, this shouldn't be much of a problem. But it won't do much good beyond scaring the crap out of the crew.

Materialisation - that is pouring enough of it's power onto the material plane to affect it - is a different kettle of fish. The spirit's now material form needs to be kept together, which means that if it can't fit in, it can't materialize.

[CanRay]

Seriously though, for all this talk about spirits manifesting in the crew compartment as a win button, has nobody thought about assigning a spirit or two to each tank, leaving them with standing orders to locate and attack any magical threats to said tank?

I've mentioned this as an option.

[Rastus]

Okay, fair enough, didn't see that. Anyone other than CanRay ever think to assign bound spirits to protect tanks from magical and astral threats?

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I assumed everyone had thought of it, so why bother saying it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Astral speeds being so high, you just need a group of spirits running interference over the whole battle.

[CanRay]

Yeah, but Astral battles are hard to catch on 'Trid, so they wouldn't be good for Desert Wars ratings...

[Summerstorm]

Also i am pretty sure that the inside of such an expensive vehicle is always warded (permanent Rating 8 ward or something, reactive one - Bzzzap). The one thing i found where magical support does not help is just casting a spell on the damn thing. Since counterspelling does not apply to objects AND you can no longer intercept spells on the astral your tank will just getting crushed if someone manage to cast a "Destroy Tank on sight"-spell on it OR is just 5 or 6 or something. (That is why i wrote up that OR-Enhancing magical vehicle armor in my Sciprotect thread)

Also isn't it mentioned somewhere that some corps have a LOT of spirit support with their heavy stuff. Aztech had one blood spirit per heavy vehicle, or not?

[Yerameyahu]

Easier to summon a spirit than build a tank, so makes perfect sense.

[CanRay]

Yeah, but tanks last longer.

...

OK, when they're not being shot at, they last longer.

[sabs]

Also i am pretty sure that the inside of such an expensive vehicle is always warded (permanent Rating 8 ward or something, reactive one - Bzzzap). The one thing i found where magical support does not help is just casting a spell on the damn thing. Since counterspelling does not apply to objects AND you can no longer intercept spells on the astral your tank will just getting crushed if someone manage to cast a "Destroy Tank on sight"-spell on it OR is just 5 or 6 or something. (That is why i wrote up that OR-Enhancing magical vehicle armor in my Sciprotect thread)

Also isn't it mentioned somewhere that some corps have a LOT of spirit support with their heavy stuff. Aztech had one blood spirit per heavy vehicle, or not?

Except that you need 6+ hits to effect a Vehicle. Arguably as a GM I would say that complex war machinery like a Tank would require 7 or 8 hits. But even if you go by the basic RAW.
Only a Force 6 and above spell has even the chance of succeeding against a tank.
Force 6 spell
Gross Hits: 6 dicepool of 18-24 to do it reliably.
DrainV: 13 roughly?

A well built optimized shadowrunner could do this. But your basic in the military spellcaster? That's well outside his comfort zone.

[hobgoblin]

Yeah, but tanks last longer.

...

OK, when they're not being shot at, they last longer.

The funny thing about tanks are that they rarely end up blown to small bits. More likely is that either the crew or some vital part have been destroyed, making the vehicle useless but recoverable. Iirc, both sides during the ww2 desert campaign used to recover tanks during the night for repairs and new crews.

[Kruger]

In my opinion a spirit can manifest with parts of itself inside the and some out - a manifestation being basically an image and the sprit still remain ing mostly on the astral plane, this shouldn't be much of a problem. But it won't do much good beyond scaring the crap out of the crew.

Materialisation - that is pouring enough of it's power onto the material plane to affect it - is a different kettle of fish. The spirit's now material form needs to be kept together, which means that if it can't fit in, it can't materialize.

You're correct, I used the wrong term. I meant materializing.

[WearzManySkins]

From long ago online chats with the Shadowrun Devs....Tanks would be rigged and have a Combat Mage on board aka inside with the crew, with the finest optical mage sight goggle system.

Also you could have the crew compartment etc lined with thin layer of FAB II contained by the walls.

Also remember multi million new yen vehicles do not go out solo or with out support.

[the_real_elwood]

If you're using Rigger 3, you can't actually build a main battle tank. The heavy railgun that is described in the book as used on "main battle tanks and naval ships" requires the extra-large turret, and there's no chassis in the book that has enough body to support an extra-large turret, or a powerplant with enough load capacity to move the thing.

Don't let that stop you though, you just have to finagle the rules a bit to use Rigger 3 to build some really cool tanks.

[CanRay]

The funny thing about tanks are that they rarely end up blown to small bits. More likely is that either the crew or some vital part have been destroyed, making the vehicle useless but recoverable. Iirc, both sides during the ww2 desert campaign used to recover tanks during the night for repairs and new crews.

Not just in Africa. Everywhere in Europe tanks and, even more so, trucks swapped sides many times. A Russian T-34 that Germans used in the retreat from the Eastern Front was just recently rescued from a Bog in excellent condition. (Of course, the exception for this rule was the "Ronson"-Series of Sherman Tanks. Those babies "Lit up the first time, every time" just like Ronson lighters.).

There was one incident in Africa, however, that made me laugh: Two convoys, one British, one German, passed by each other. Because of the hodgepodge of trucks each side had, both thought they were on the same side.

[hobgoblin]

If you're using Rigger 3, you can't actually build a main battle tank. The heavy railgun that is described in the book as used on "main battle tanks and naval ships" requires the extra-large turret, and there's no chassis in the book that has enough body to support an extra-large turret, or a powerplant with enough load capacity to move the thing.

Don't let that stop you though, you just have to finagle the rules a bit to use Rigger 3 to build some really cool tanks.

Actually there is, as they errated the turret to fit onto the largest caterpillar chassis. But the engine would need to be worked over with the infamous customization upgrade to be able to handle the load. But when done so, the gas turbine powerplant gives a design that is not far off from the M1 in performance, iirc.