Fire Immunity, Goblins as thor shots Options

[Mäx]

Anyway, the 'full' bit is mentioned a few posts back. You were there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It may have been, but it's nowhere to be found on the Immunity Powers description.
Never ever go by someone else's post unless they actually post quote from the relevant part of the book.

[Yerameyahu]

I find it relevant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

I'm not debating whether or not the word "full" has been used in this thread - I'm not seeing it in the rules. Also the sentence in question also mentions the Immunity as being armor, so your "protection" argument is invalid as it refered to the armor.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not what I said. I said that if they'd meant 'Hardened Armor', they would have written "Hardened Armor". The way they *did* write it makes it obvious what aspect is the focus.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not debating whether or not the word "full" has been used in this thread - I'm not seeing it in the rules. Also the sentence in question also mentions the Immunity as being armor, so your "protection" argument is invalid as it refered to the armor.

Please see Page 327 of the SR4A book... Armor Modifications...

Fire Resistance, Nonconductivity, Insulation, and Chemical Protection add their FULL RATING when resisting Fire, Electricity, Cold, or Chemical attacks without a comensurate reduction in Armor Rating for hte Protection Listed... As such, If the relevant armor mod (in this case Fire Resistance) is rated at 6, then the target gets an additional +6 dice to its 1/2 Impact armor to resist such damage.

THAT is where the term "FULL" is listed, and why it is relevant. All armor (and by extension their mods) are treated the same way... Fire Immunity provides Fire Resistance like Hardened Armor (If damage does not exceed, it is ignored) and as the Fire Resistance Modification (If it is exceeded by the damage, the base Armor is halved, the Fire Resistance (Invulnerability) rating is added to the armor (as normal for all armors) and then resistance is rolled)... Pretty simple actually... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

The goal of 4th Edition was to remove as many of the subsystems that were inherent in the game, providing a smoother interface to use... thus many of the rules work the same for various things... Many do not like this... I, however, really enjoy this... there is SO much less that is required to be learned in the course of a game. Take that how you will... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not saying you can't argue that Fire Immunity was designed stupidly (1/2 against fire); it just doesn't make any sense given the rest of the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm saying it's the same argument as 'spirits can't manifest', or whatever: worthless.

[Neraph]

Ok, so Fire Protection and other things similar to that say you add the full rating. But those are not what Immunities are.

The critter gains an "Armor rating" equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage.

If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Hardened Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don't even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.

Underline mine.

Trying to say that Immunities function like Fire Protection simply because they use the word "protection" once while describing the armor is flat-out wrong. You are forcing your misguided comprehension of a sentence on the mechanics of the game. If what you claim is right, the entire section would have been worded dramatically differently.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ok, so Fire Protection and other things similar to that say you add the full rating. But those are not what Immunities are.

Underline mine.

Trying to say that Immunities function like Fire Protection simply because they use the word "protection" once while describing the armor is flat-out wrong. You are forcing your misguided comprehension of a sentence on the mechanics of the game. If what you claim is right, the entire section would have been worded dramatically differently.

You have your Interpretation and everyone else has theirs... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Or what they wrote, since it references the Armor sections pretty heavily, applies regardless... since you are not a Developeer, your opinion is just that, an opinion... And my opinion differs... I do not claim that you are WRONG, just that you have an interpretatin that differs from mine (and others it seems)... Please do not tell me that I am wrong in the face of inadequate explanations to the contrary...

Since Immunities Refer you to the Armor sections, and Immunities are treated like armor, then you must reference the Armor sections to obtain a complete picture... As such, I am pretty confident that treating Immunity to Fire as a Hardened Resistance (Like ITNW is treated) is within the realms of the intent of the rules. If you differ in opinion, that is okay...

[Yerameyahu]

Nope, you're still wrong. The one and only aspect of Hardened Armor that is to be used is the 'hardened' part: "meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage." That's all. There's no reason to think it's B/I, etc. Instead, it's an " 'Armor rating' " against (e.g.) Fire damage. Not Impact armor against Fire (halved). You know this is true, because why would Immunity be halved against the thing that it's Immunity against? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm not saying it functions as the armor modification *because* it mentions protection. I'm saying it because the other position is ludicrous, possibly "misguided". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

/quit This is stupid.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

/quit This is stupid.

But often entertaining... Look at the upside, I would love to use Goblins as Thor Shots... I mean really, an ammunition that breeds, Talk about effeciency...

[Draco18s]

One last quip pointing out how stupid the "half" argument is:

"I am hitting a fire immune critter with fire so it only gets half of its immunity bonus."

[Neraph]

"I am hitting a fire immune critter with fire so it only gets half of its immunity bonus."

Yes, and he still gets extra armor against it. And depending on the Magic rating of the creature in question, the creature can still ignore the attack all together. Hell, spirits with ItNW can still be killed with normal weapons anyways.

And by a strict reading of the rules for Immunities you would never interpret it as "protection" like the Fire Protection. There's simply no more than one single word that your entire argument hinges on, and even that word can't be valid because it was describing the word "Armor" that the sentence was talking about.

EDIT: For the Immunity Power to work like you gentlemen claim, it would have to be worded something like "The bonus granted by Immunity cannot be reduced by normal means, much like Nonconductivity or Fire Protection bonuses." Since it has absolutely no rules actually referencing those sub-armors, you cannot use those rules.

As written, a critter with Immunity (Fire) has Hardened Armor (subject to normal Armor Penetration) equal to twice its Magic rating, but only against attacks that deal Fire Damage.

EDIT EDIT: Also, the Armor section of the rules say nothing about Fire Protection or Nonconductivity. Those are specifically mentioned in the Gear Section, as a subset of rules, called Armor Modifications. Since neither the Immunity Power nor the Hardened Armor Power refer you to the Armor Modifications section, you cannot use rules from there in your argument.

[Doc Chase]

But often entertaining... Look at the upside, I would love to use Goblins as Thor Shots... I mean really, an ammunition that breeds, Talk about effeciency...

Tungsten doesn't talk back and you don't have to feed it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Neraph]

Tungsten doesn't talk back and you don't have to feed it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Very true. Tungsten also doesn't go to the bathroom in your shoes.

[Neraph]

All of them except Age *are* resistances, right? And it's odd to talk about 'Immunity to Age' in the first place; it really doesn't belong with them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It has its own couple of sentences in the Immunity section, which validates it.

You know this is true, because why would Immunity be halved against the thing that it's Immunity against? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So, does Armor Penetration from normal weapons apply against Spirits who have Immunity to Normal Weapons? If so, you're not being consistant. If not, you're not playing with the rules properly.

EDIT: Woah, the post I quoted disappeared...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ok, Goblins might be immune to fire and would survive the reentry, but HOW THE HELL will it survive the collision?

[Yerameyahu]

It won't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) That's the best part. Bye bye, goblin.

Like I said: Immunity to Age doesn't really fit. I didn't say it's not in that section, but that it shouldn't be. It's separate and different, that's all. It's not an important point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Elemental damage (halving) is a whole different animal from 'Normal Weapons'; I don't see the connection.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It won't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) That's the best part. Bye bye, goblin.

Like I said: Immunity to Age doesn't really fit. I didn't say it's not in that section, but that it shouldn't be. It's separate and different, that's all. It's not an important point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Elemental damage (halving) is a whole different animal from 'Normal Weapons'; I don't see the connection.

I don't think the goblin would share the same sentiment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Doc Chase]

"Immunity" just needs to be replaced with "Resistance", IMO.

The way RAW states it is contra to the textbook definition.

[CanRay]

Look, there's an easy way to find the solution to this...

Throw a lit Molotov at it. If it runs around, screaming in pain until it falls down dead, it wasn't immune to fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Sephiroth]

This seems lik its relevant to the discussion.

<~ Not a dev

Immunity to [XXX] was clarified somewhat in Running Wild. Before anyone has a hissy cow (never underestimate the power of the hissy cow) over the fact that immunity does not grant, well, immunity, please keep in mind that these rules are descended from previous editions, which worked in basically the same way.

Anyway, fire. Fire does not actually have any armor penetration per se, it does modify the Impact armor value (yes, I know that sounds like silly semantics, but I had to deal with a Flaming Stun spell once and these things can be important). Immunity to Fire gives the critter the equivalent of Hardened Armor (Magic x 2) against Fire damage. That means that if the modified Damage Value of the fire attack is less than the critter's Magic x 2, it doesn't even make a test for damage. If the fire DV is greater, then the Hardened Armor is treated as Ballistic/Impact armor and you can apply the normal modifier from fire damage.

Okay, that sounds like a bunch of glass ninja stuff, so let's look at an example.

Zippo the fire rat has Magic 3 and Immunity to Fire. That means against fire damage, he has effective Hardened Armor 6. Running around in the volcanic vent that is his home, which normally deals 3 DV fire damage per turn, Zippo doesn't burn at all. If some nasty shaman throws a Force 7 Fireball at him, however, Zippo is in trouble, because at 7 DV it exceeds his (Magic x 2). Zippo still has an effective Impact Armor 3 (Magic x 2 / 2) when resisting the 7 DV attack, however.

[Yerameyahu]

So, 1 net hit is all it's worth: ouch. Doesn't make sense. I guess it should be renamed 'Environment Immunity: Fire', to reflect the only thing it's useful for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

Yeah, I don't agree with AH's take either, I'd still give Zippo 6 dice to resist.

Impact armor is halved for elemental effects merely to deal with the fact that a flak vest is really good at protecting you from being shot (8 armor!) not so good at keeping you from being stabbed (6 armor!) and downright awful (but not entirely useless) when being set on fire, electrocuted, or immersed in acid (3 armor).

"Fire Armor" is better than Impact armor for protecting you from fire (duh) therefore is not halved, but does jack diddly against electricity and acid.

Impact armor is the generic "catch all" solution that allows sheer bulk to protect you from the worst of an attack, it's not geared towards being good at it, it just helps, therefore its value is halved against elemental attacks (elemental attacks do not have "armor penetration: half"* they simply are resisted with half impact).

*How do we know this? Because all of the damage types are listed under "see page 154" where Electric (also fire, acid, cold, fatigue, and falling continuing onto page 155) says "resisted with half impact." It is not an armor modifier.

Certain environmental effects—acid, fire, extreme cold,
electricity—have a slightly different effect than standard types of
damage, as noted below.

Acid damage is treated as Physical damage
and resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up).

Cold damage is treated as Physical
damage and resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up).

Electrical damage is treated as Stun damage and resisted
with half Impact armor (rounded up)—metallic armor, however,
offers no protection.

Falling Damage
Use Body + half the rating of the
character’s Impact armor (round down) to resist this damage.

Fatigue Damage
this damage cannot be resisted.

Treat Fire damage as Physical damage, but Impact armor only
protects against it with half its value (round up).

Note how none of them say that the damage has armor penetration but that a damage resistance test is made using some value (typically half the target's impact armor).

[Neraph]

Absolutely no.

Immunity to Fire simply gives you Impact and Ballistic Armor that happens to be Hardened and is equal to twice the Magic rating of the critter against attacks from fire.

Period.

Against other attacks, the critter's Immunity does not help at all, so your example of the flak vest is a strawman.

I'll just chock it up to you people intentionally misreading the RAW.