Possession as a metamagic, Probably not what you're thinking. Options

[Tanegar]

No, I don't mean a materialization-tradition magician teaching his spirits the Possession power. I mean a magician learning to possess someone else while astrally projecting.

Possession
Prerequisite: Must be able to astrally project.
The Possession metamagic effectively grants the magician an ability equivalent to the spirit power of the same name. It follows all the same rules, with the exception that the magician's Magic attribute is substituted for Force. Rules for vessel preparation also apply. Vessels possessed by a magician rather than a spirit do not gain Immunity to Normal Weapons, or any attribute bonuses; rather, the possessing magician's Mental Attributes temporarily overwrite the vessel's (if the vessel is alive), while the vessel retains its Physical Attributes. In the case of a living vessel, the magician also cannot access any of the vessel's skills, nor use any cyberware that requires activation. Possession by a magician may not be immediately obvious to mundane onlookers, but an Assensing + Intuition [1] test will immediately reveal that a person has been possessed. Note that if a person suddenly displays a drastic change in behavior, those nearby may become suspicious. In any event, the possession may not be sustained beyond the limit of the magician's ability to project; the magician must depart the vessel and return to his or her own body within (Magic) hours, or his or her astral form will die.

Basically, I see this as an aid to infiltration and reconnaissance rather than a way to dominate in combat. What do you think?

[Neraph]

You mean getting a mage with a Great Form Spirit that has Endowment Endow the mage with Possession? This one's RAW.

Yours is pretty good though. I'd make the peeps do some sort of metaplanar search to get it though.

[Tanegar]

In that instance, does the mage's vessel gain ItNW or attribute bonuses equal to the mage's Magic?

[Neraph]

Yes.

[Tanegar]

I like my metamagic better, then. It's less broken.

[Xahn Borealis]

But what about their body? Does the projection timer 'pause' while they're possessing?

[Tanegar]

Check the last line of the description. I addressed that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You mean getting a mage with a Great Form Spirit that has Endowment Endow the mage with Possession? This one's RAW.

Yours is pretty good though. I'd make the peeps do some sort of metaplanar search to get it though.

I have to disagree there Neraph...

Since you cannot gain the Powers of Astral Form, Materialization, Possession, nor Inhabitation from a Power pact (They are not grantable; And in My opinion, Power Pacts are more powerful than Endowment is), I would question the logic that would allow a Great Form Guardian Spirit to give these Powers with Endowment...

I believe that the saying is: "Just say no..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neraph]

I have to disagree there Neraph...

Since you cannot gain the Powers of Astral Form, Materialization, Possession, nor Inhabitation from a Power pact (They are not grantable; And in My opinion, Power Pacts are more powerful than Endowment is), I would question the logic that would allow a Great Form Guardian Spirit to give these Powers with Endowment...

I believe that the saying is: "Just say no..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Go read Endowment. Endowment and Power Pact are two different things - that's why they have two different names and they're listed in two different areas. And gained two different ways.

[Mordinvan]

No, I don't mean a materialization-tradition magician teaching his spirits the Possession power. I mean a magician learning to possess someone else while astrally projecting.

I like it, but I'd tack on the weakness that if someone banishes you, you're effectly dead, as you can't make it back to you body before it dies, cause you're stuck on your tradition's metaplane for the next 28-magic days.

[jaellot]

If I recall right I think SR3 had something like this in the Magic In The Shadows sourcebook. That was the edition they started having prereqs for certain techniques, and you needed something in order to do Possession. It could have also been in the State of the Art 2064.

Anyway, I personally think yours is cool. It has its limitations, it could still be used for awesomeness, say if you possess the big troll with the minigun on the opposition. Even if you don't have the skill and know-how to use the weapon, the bad guys don't have it anymore either.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Go read Endowment. Endowment and Power Pact are two different things - that's why they have two different names and they're listed in two different areas. And gained two different ways.

No, I understand that they are different abilities; but if the more powerful one (Power Pact) can't do it, then I question whether the weaker one (Endowment) could accomplish it either... Of course, My opinion of which is more powerful is also an opinion... But since Endowment Must be Sustained, and Power Pact does not, well, there you go...

And That was my point... Not arguing that they are not different, I understand that... It just seesm pretty obvious that there should be some things that PC's should not have... the ability to gain Possession, Materialization or Inhabitation are 3 very obvious ones in my opinion, and since they are forbidden in one area, I cannot see them being available in another...


ALSO: I like the idea of the Possession Metamagic above, it is intriguing indeed...

[Neraph]

No, I understand that they are different abilities; but if the more powerful one (Power Pact) can't do it, then I question whether the weaker one (Endowment) could accomplish it either... Of course, My opinion of which is more powerful is also an opinion... But since Endowment Must be Sustained, and Power Pact does not, well, there you go...

And That was my point... Not arguing that they are not different, I understand that... It just seesm pretty obvious that there should be some things that PC's should not have... the ability to gain Possession, Materialization or Inhabitation are 3 very obvious ones in my opinion, and since they are forbidden in one area, I cannot see them being available in another...


ALSO: I like the idea of the Possession Metamagic above, it is intriguing indeed...

Is it not possible that Power Pact is actually the weaker one, and Endowment is the stronger? Power Pact is a magical ability that certain spirits need to gain, Endowment is an essential Power of Great Form spirits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is it not possible that Power Pact is actually the weaker one, and Endowment is the stronger? Power Pact is a magical ability that certain spirits need to gain, Endowment is an essential Power of Great Form spirits.

I did say as much, as it is an opinion...

BUT NOTE: Only TWO Great Form Spirits, and that is all (Guardian and Task are the only ones to actually receive Endowment)... Also only a limited number of Traditions actually have access to them as well)... ANd it is not an essential Power of all Great Form Spirits taht can possess this ability... You need MORE THAN AN Exceptional Success (5 Hits) on Invoking Test to actually have access to it...

You could possibly argue that a Free Spirit could attain Endowment, Perhaps... But note that Free spirits can rarely be commanded to perform to the Magician's Desires... Can't summon and bind them without their formulae after all.

The fact that Endowment must be sustained shows to me that it is the weaker one... Power pacts just require a Pact, no sustaining beyond gaining the pact, and then renewing the pact... which takes negotiation and sacrifice, vs. Endowment, which you can command that Great Form Spirit to perform... I don't know, Seems like Power Pact is the Stronger to me...

ALL Free Spirits can have Power Pact...

[Neraph]

The fact that Endowment must be sustained by obvious beings of immense power shows that it is much stronger, actually. It's like a D battery versus a wall outlet.

Also, free spirits (not PCs) can easily have Endowment. You see, someone summoned up and Invoked a F8 spirit, it got Endowment, and it went free. Bam, free spirit with Endowment.

I agree with the rest of what you said though.

[Prime Mover]

From Ancient File

Possessing

One of the new metamagics presented in Magic in the Shadows, possessing allows an initiate's astral form to take control of another being's body.
The astral form of the host is not "pushed out" when the body is possessed; it is completely enveloped by the astral form of the possessing initiate.(mits.77)

It's basically astral combat, stun damage only. If the possessor wins he gets the body. Stun doesnt take effect till possessor leaves and can hold body for number of hours equal to grade.

EDIT: Can only effect astral active or dual natured targets.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The fact that Endowment must be sustained by obvious beings of immense power shows that it is much stronger, actually. It's like a D battery versus a wall outlet.

Also, free spirits (not PCs) can easily have Endowment. You see, someone summoned up and Invoked a F8 spirit, it got Endowment, and it went free. Bam, free spirit with Endowment.

I agree with the rest of what you said though.

I disagree that sustainment indicates a level of power; hell, even a Force 1 Spirit can sustain...

A binding contract that has repercussions/benefits for both parties seems to be more powerful in my opinion (Pacts in General)...

Sustained powers seem more like a favor by comparison... in your analogy, I would consider Sustaining equal to your "D" Battery, while Pacts are the "Main Current"...

And I do agree that you can possibly have a Free Invoked Spirit (do they stay Invoked when they go Free?) with the Endowment Ability (Guardian And Task only, obviously), but I would not agree that it is an available power to ALL Free Spirits (At least not without GM Adjudication, which is also generally required for those Invoked Free Spirits you mention).

[Neraph]

No, because that Power Pact is only for 1 day. Endowment is sustained, which means it can theoretically go over a day (long-term binding).

I do agree with you that Endowment would not be applicable to all free spirits, not even free Guardian/Task spirits. It's not on their list of normal powers - it's a special power they gain when they are Invoked.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, because that Power Pact is only for 1 day. Endowment is sustained, which means it can theoretically go over a day (long-term binding).

I do agree with you that Endowment would not be applicable to all free spirits, not even free Guardian/Task spirits. It's not on their list of normal powers - it's a special power they gain when they are Invoked.

Pacts, in general, deliver more powerful effects, that are completely removed from the Summoning/Binding process for the mage. Note that a Spirit (any old spirit as it were) Sustaining a Power may have it drop at a most inconvenient time for the player (Disruption/Banishing is a harsh mistress after all), through no control of their own. While a Power Pact is inviolable, regardless of circumstance once made, until it is time to renew the Pact. Again, Seems more powerful to me... Only FREE Spirits may make a pact after all...

But I can agree that with Long term Binding you do get access to a long-term Power through Endowment that could indeed be impressive... I would still argue that you could not obtain Possession, Materialization or Inhabitation through Endowment however.

[darthmord]

I like it, but I'd tack on the weakness that if someone banishes you, you're effectly dead, as you can't make it back to you body before it dies, cause you're stuck on your tradition's metaplane for the next 28-magic days.

Time spent on the metaplanes doesn't count. Now your body may very well die of dehydration / body snatchers / etc before you get back...

[Rand]

Pacts, in general, deliver more powerful effects, that are completely removed from the Summoning/Binding process for the mage. Note that a Spirit (any old spirit as it were) Sustaining a Power may have it drop at a most inconvenient time for the player (Disruption/Banishing is a harsh mistress after all), through no control of their own. While a Power Pact is inviolable, regardless of circumstance once made, until it is time to renew the Pact. Again, Seems more powerful to me... Only FREE Spirits may make a pact after all...

But I can agree that with Long term Binding you do get access to a long-term Power through Endowment that could indeed be impressive... I would still argue that you could not obtain Possession, Materialization or Inhabitation through Endowment however.

Of course, you could go with the flavor that the reason one can be sustained and the other cannot is that it is easier to sustain a weaker ability. You must continually "hold on" to the more powerful ability or else it will get away from you - also why it is able to be disrupted easier, as well. (Not say that is how it is, just that it could be how it is....)

I dig the Possession Metamagic, I would just make it an Advanced Metamagic, with having one or more of the other possession metamagics being required as a prior knowledge or ability. I don't think I would have a banishing necessarily be able to kill the possessing mage, but banish and maybe send back to their own body, sure. Possibly do a bit of damage... Sounds like it could be a cool power.

[Tanegar]

...other possession metamagics...

What?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Of course, you could go with the flavor that the reason one can be sustained and the other cannot is that it is easier to sustain a weaker ability. You must continually "hold on" to the more powerful ability or else it will get away from you - also why it is able to be disrupted easier, as well. (Not say that is how it is, just that it could be how it is....)

Easy... A Spirit Sustaining an ability is Banished/Disrupted, I would say that the Sustaining goes away immediately upon resolution of Disruption/Banishing... A Pact cares less, the Spirit could even be deep in the metaplanes as far as a Pact is concerned...

[Garvel]

I like the idea. But most metamagic techniqes improve with a higher initiate grade. Maybe the maximum duration could be influenced by the initiate grade.

I would still argue that you could not obtain Possession, Materialization or Inhabitation through Endowment however.

While it seems to be allowed RAW, that surely ins't RAI.
I think most GMs wouldn't allow this.

[Neraph]

What?

Channeling, basically. I can't think of any others.