Immortal Elf...banshee?, question Options

[Laodicea]

So...The immortal elves were walking around in the 5th world behind the scenes, doing what they do.

What about immortal elves who happened to be infected? Would they have died when the mana levels could no longer support the magical infection?

Is there anything in the fiction that indicates that there were infected immortal elves running around in the 5th world?

As a GM, would it be ridiculous to include an immortal elf banshee in my game as The Big Bad for the campaign?

Thanks!

[Mooncrow]

So...The immortal elves were walking around in the 5th world behind the scenes, doing what they do.

What about immortal elves who happened to be infected? Would they have died when the mana levels could no longer support the magical infection?

Is there anything in the fiction that indicates that there were infected immortal elves running around in the 5th world?

As a GM, would it be ridiculous to include an immortal elf banshee in my game as The Big Bad for the campaign?

Thanks!

Well, since we don't know exactly how the Immortal Elves work (at least I don't think it's been covered?) it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to have one as an Infected. While they probably were hampered by a low magic rating during the 5th world, all they would really need to stay alive is enough to power their essence drain. And given the numerous legends of vampires operating in the 5th world, that certainly seems plausible.

So in short - sounds like a pretty sweet Big Bad to me =)

(Taking note, and stealing the idea for a future run^^)

[Yerameyahu]

Did the diseases exist then? Personally, having no idea how the IE's work is a good reason *not* to assume they can be Infected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Definitely could be the idea for a really scary monster, though.

[Mooncrow]

Did the diseases exist then? Personally, having no idea how the IE's work is a good reason *not* to assume they can be Infected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Definitely could be the idea for a really scary monster, though.

Well, we know they can be Corrupted (Blood Queen, Ainthe) it doesn't seem like it's a stretch to say they could be Infected. But who knows?

[Laodicea]

I karmagened him with around 2500 karma and no restrictions on availability of gear. He has a pretty extensive support system of businesses, syndicates, and gangs. He's a possession tradition magician with quite a number of metamagics including channeling.

He's also being hunted by a group of elite "witch hunters" that belong to a specific and secret order of Priests belonging to the Catholic church, who answer only to the Pope and to God. These witch hunters believe him to be the anti-christ. These "witch hunters" are also pretty prejudiced against any non-christian magical traditions.

The shadowrun team ran into one of them and killed him. He was locking people up, torturing them for information on the anti-christ. The specific Witch Hunter they killed was quite a bad ass in terms of magical protection. Mystic adept w/ spell resistance, counterspelling foci, 6 skill in counter spelling, etc. He had a very fancy heavy pistol with an ammo skip system, loaded up with silver bullets, UV rounds, SNS, APDS, etc. However, he died easily to the unarmed combat adept that snuck up on him. He could have proven a valuable ally to the team if they hadn't 1. killed him and 2. been able to get along with him despite vastly different magical traditions.

[Critias]

If you think your group has a realistic chance in hell at taking out (or, rather, surviving a conflict with) a monster like that, knock yourself out, I guess. If it'll fit in your campaign, it'll fit in your campaign.

Personally? I'd assume that Immortal Elves aren't only immune to aging in order to rightfully be called "immortal," but diseases -- even HMHVV -- as well, so the infection/immortality aren't exactly compatible. That's just me, though, and I'm not sure if it's 100% canon.

[Laodicea]

I can't imagine they could ever kill him, or even take him on. He's just the guy behind the scenes causing all the bad shit to happen, a bit like a great dragon.

If they ever do learn enough to find him, they'll probably have the wisdom to not attack him head on. If they dont have that much wisdom, they'll probably die.

[Sephiroth]

Personally? I'd assume that Immortal Elves aren't only immune to aging in order to rightfully be called "immortal," but diseases -- even HMHVV -- as well, so the infection/immortality aren't exactly compatible. That's just me, though, and I'm not sure if it's 100% canon.

I'm not sure where I found it, but I have read somewhere that all Immortals, including the immortal elves, have Immunity to Age, Toxins, and Disease. I might just be thinking of Knasser's Harlequin writeup, but I think it's been established that the IE's are immune to desease and all that.

[Traul]

Why do you need an immortal elf to begin with? Banshees are immortal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Maybe Immortal Elfs do not exist? Maybe they are just a cover-up for a giant banshee conspiracy? I will ask Harlequin next time I see him.

[CanRay]

JetBlack LIVES!

[Laodicea]

Why do you need an immortal elf to begin with? Banshees are immortal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Maybe Immortal Elfs do not exist? Maybe they are just a cover-up for a giant banshee conspiracy? I will ask Harlequin next time I see him.

HAH! Sadly, that's the best explanation I've heard so far.

[Jaid]

just thought i'd mention, i vaguely recall hearing that one of the german novels happened to include an elven nosferatu or some such thing being around during the downtime. so i would say that if you're willing to consider a (reputedly not very good) novel to be canon, then yes... there probably were banshees around throughout the 5th world. or at the very least, it's a reasonable possibility.

[Doc Byte]

Why do you need an immortal elf to begin with? Banshees are immortal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

AFAIK all HMHVV infected are imune to age.

[Critias]

I think the issue to remember is that "Immortal Elf" tends to refer to a very specific set of them, that've been around since the Fourth Age. They are plot points. They are the sort of creatures that don't gets stats, because they're beyond the game's ability to meaningfully reflect the scope and scale of ability they are capable of.

A Banshee tacks some Critter powers on top of that, and makes them even nastier, and particularly more resilient to physical harm.

It's...pretty unnecessary, in my opinion. An IE is already something -- played properly -- so far beyond the ability of your average group of Shadowrunners to challenge, that making them a Banshee too is like giving Superman Thor's hammer, Iron Man's armor, Cap's shield, and a Green Lantern ring, in order to challenge a group of bank robbers.

If it's what's needed in your campaign to provide an appropriate challenge to your players, well, more power to ya. But in my experience it seems more likely to be a Mary Sue-ish example of heavy-handed GM powermongering, which is the sort of thing that can get off the leash and run out of control pretty fast.

[CanRay]

Bank Robbers...

I think you're giving Shadowrunners too much credit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Laodicea]

I think the issue to remember is that "Immortal Elf" tends to refer to a very specific set of them, that've been around since the Fourth Age. They are plot points. They are the sort of creatures that don't gets stats, because they're beyond the game's ability to meaningfully reflect the scope and scale of ability they are capable of.

A Banshee tacks some Critter powers on top of that, and makes them even nastier, and particularly more resilient to physical harm.

It's...pretty unnecessary, in my opinion. An IE is already something -- played properly -- so far beyond the ability of your average group of Shadowrunners to challenge, that making them a Banshee too is like giving Superman Thor's hammer, Iron Man's armor, Cap's shield, and a Green Lantern ring, in order to challenge a group of bank robbers.

If it's what's needed in your campaign to provide an appropriate challenge to your players, well, more power to ya. But in my experience it seems more likely to be a Mary Sue-ish example of heavy-handed GM powermongering, which is the sort of thing that can get off the leash and run out of control pretty fast.

The Big Bad is almost always unkillable. See my post above comparing him to a Great Dragon. He's not some kind of video game boss that you have to kill at the end of the game. He's the power broker behind the scenes.

[kzt]

The Big Bad is almost always unkillable. See my post above comparing him to a Great Dragon. He's not some kind of video game boss that you have to kill at the end of the game. He's the power broker behind the scenes.

That's completely true if you are running a FPS. It's a crazy assumption in any other game, like SR. The fact that you can't get to Damon Knight doesn't mean he can shoot lasers out of his eyes or summon greatform F12 blood spirits. He'll still crush you like a bug if he realizes you are a threat.

[Critias]

The Big Bad is almost always unkillable. See my post above comparing him to a Great Dragon. He's not some kind of video game boss that you have to kill at the end of the game. He's the power broker behind the scenes.

No, but he's a bad guy that you need to be able to survive having as a bad guy.

If you've got Lofwyr's attention as a mild annoyance, the odds are very, very, good you're dead. You don't need to make Lofwyr a dracolich on top of that.

[Mooncrow]

No, but he's a bad guy that you need to be able to survive having as a bad guy.

If you've got Lofwyr's attention as a mild annoyance, the odds are very, very, good you're dead. You don't need to make Lofwyr a dracolich on top of that.

Isn't that what they basically did to his brother? At a certain point, it's more about style than anything else.

Think of it this way instead - if you want to have the Big Bad be a banshee, how do you give them the stats of "unkillable"?

[Laodicea]

Unkillable isn't exactly the goal. I suppose if they somehow managed to get through all his support and security and plant a huge bomb at his mansion, he'd die. Terrifying and interesting in terms of his motivations is more the goal I had in mind. An immortal elf banshee isn't looking for exactly the same things in life as a dragon.

His support and security will be fairly impressive. He's not a AAA corp owner like Damien Knight, though.

[Yerameyahu]

Well. That's a Medium Bad, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Laodicea]

^^ yet people are saying I'd be a mean GM to make him the Big Bad of the campaign....

[WyldKnight]

And thats why you ignore them lol. Honestly whats the big deal? Making it a banshee doesn't make it any tougher because your not fighting it directly anyway. I've noticed that a lot in the Dumpshock community, people seem to need a reason to do a lot of things and scoff at the justification of because it's cool.

[CanRay]

See here.

[Dumori]

I have to make a few points some have been/might have already been made:

• HMHVV wasn't around in the 4th age for some reason.
• Immortal Elves appear to have immunity to toxins/dease as well as age.
• Is it really needed just pick one or the other I'd ignore the IE part my self due to them being like GDs but "sexier" the banshee part also seams to be more key than the IE part to your grand plot. Just remember while Harliy might be the most powerful IE his magic is at least above 50 by cannon descriptions, The other IEs might be less powerful but we are still talking 12+ magic to say the least plus ages to produce foci and such.