Spell Binding Spirits and reputations? Options

[Jonny Reload]

I was curious when I was looking up stuff for Summoning Spirits... Spell Binding can obviously destroy a spirit once it hits Force 0.

If the Spirit has to obey (even if it's reluctantly) how is there any repercussion to this? If you kill the spirit, it can't exactly go back to the Astral Plane and tell other Spirits how much of a jerk you are.

Do Spirits get there Force back if you let them go before they hit 0 Force? (Ex. Spell Binding a Force 2 Spirit and letting him go after only 24 hours.)

Why would ever ask a bound Spirit for Spell Sustaining when you can just have Spell Binding?

I'd appreciate any clarification or book references for this topic, thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Makki]

that's actually a very good question, because it's i assume very poorely written. this would bring up a new way to destroy all these evil free spirits, if you manage to banish/summon/bind them. which is as i just read "banishing a free spirit" actually not more difficult than normal spirits, because after successful banishing they don't have any edge left to help withstand summoning and binding.

[Mäx]

that's actually a very good question, because it's i assume very poorely written. this would bring up a new way to destroy all these evil free spirits, if you manage to banish/summon/bind them. which is as i just read "banishing a free spirit" actually not more difficult than normal spirits, because after successful banishing they don't have any edge left to help withstand summoning and binding.

You need free spirits formula to summon him.

[Makki]

If the spirit’s services are reduced to 0, the spirit will seek to depart on its next
action. The banishing magician (or any magician within line of sight,
for that matter), can make a Summoning Test against the spirit before
it departs, bringing the spirit into her own service instead. A spirit banished
and then summoned this way can later be bound as well.

SR4A p188: why wouldn't this work for all types of spirits?
interestingly, even mundanes can summon and bind free spirits by the rules of SM p108..


@topic SM p95

yes, spirits do know if a conjurer has mistreated
other spirits. Whether the rumor mill in the metaplanes
works really fast or spirits can somehow pick up the telltales
in a conjurer’s aura, the spirits know if a magician’s been bad
or good.

it's not necessarily spirits talking to each other in the metaplanes. noone knows for sure...

[Mäx]

SR4A p188: why wouldn't this work for all types of spirits?
interestingly, even mundanes can summon and bind free spirits by the rules of SM p108..

Why would that circumvent the explicit need for a free spirits formula to summon one?
Also banished free spirit doesn't seek to depart on their next action like bound spirit does, its "temporarily disrupted and vanishes to its native metaplane"

[Jonny Reload]

that's actually a very good question, because it's i assume very poorely written. this would bring up a new way to destroy all these evil free spirits, if you manage to banish/summon/bind them. which is as i just read "banishing a free spirit" actually not more difficult than normal spirits, because after successful banishing they don't have any edge left to help withstand summoning and binding.

So there's really no where to turn to for information on this? from the only thing I got in Street Magic on a user posts exerpt, a user was talking about the only known thing known about what spirits want (or not want) is to be Bound or Spell Bound to hold a spell..... I mean that's nice and all but if I utterly destroy it, who cares?

Is there no Astral Authority or word of mouth among spirits to prevent this sort of thing running wild amongst Summoners? I mean hypothetically there are an infinite amount of Spirits from the Astral Plane... If your character isn't really humane, and there's no checks or balances, why is this left as a choice to the player rather then letting be the only option (since it's the best to use) for sustaining spells rather then sustaining a spell for Force x Favors = Combat Turns? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Mooncrow]

There are no hard and fast rules on this, no. It's probably one of my least favorite things about the current magic system; the lack of actual, written penalties for mistreating spirits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There are no hard and fast rules on this, no. It's probably one of my least favorite things about the current magic system; the lack of actual, written penalties for mistreating spirits.

Probably because in any given game the penalties will vary...
If you are in need of something Hard and Fast, use some of the modifiers from the Social Modifiers table...

[jakephillips]

Yep, in the fluff it says that mages can get a reputation for mistreating spirits. If they do GM call then I have the spirits roll edge to resist summoning and binding to the mage.

[jaellot]

One quick thought is to have a seperate track of Notoriety for Spirits.

Also, don't forget the Dweller on the Thresholds who brings out everybodys' skeletons from the closets of the cosmos when you go on an Astral Quest. They clearly know alot of stuff, somehow, and when your mage isn't trying to get by with as little embarassment as possible They have to get bored, right? Picture an Astral coffee shop...

Dweller- Hey Loa Lou, how's being a Free Loa treating ya?
Lou- Hey Dee, it's kinda nice, what's up with you?
Dweller- Not much. Say, you hear some dickhead mage banished Ethereal Eddie? Free Spirit of Man from FDC?
Lou- What?! I'm Twittering that to all my other spirit buddies right now...

[WyldKnight]

If you have ever looked at Eclipse Phase there is a system where you have different reputations in different social circles. My old group converted that and used it in SR. So Notoriety and Reputation were all subjective, what may get you good in with one group won't with another and you would gain and loose influence depending on your choices. So basically you could lose the respect of spirits which would mean any spirit of average intelligence (force 3 and above) would start to fight being summoned/bound by you the worse your rep got but on the other hand they wouldn't mind so much if you have a really good rep.

[Jonny Reload]

Ok, so let's dig a bit deeper then and assume our Mage isn't a moron... Let's say he gets at least 2 favors over the Force 1 Spirit.... Favor #1, "Do not communicate in any shape or fashion with anyone except me." Favor #2, Spell Bind!

Moving about the city and having free Spirits communicating with other Spirits might be common, but if bound, chances are you don't want a grudge carrying bound Spirit that's serving you to give away sensitive information or look to seek help to kill you... So doesn't this then become a perfect crime for being able to use Spell Binding? You don't have a witness to speak about the crime cause he disappears into oblivion after you take away his last point of Force, he can't ask any of it's allies for assistance, and since Spirits are being conjured from an infinite source of Spirits from the Astral Realm, who the hell would notice a few missing Spirits out of an INFINITE society of them?

The reason why I'm asking all this is, unless your extremely dense, can't you just easily get away with just opting to go for Spell Binding rather then Spell Sustaining with spirits and get no repercussions? (Ironically your suppose to be doing this on your missions for your Johnson, but why can't the same tactics you'd apply upon a mark also work against Spirits in order to make them disappear without alerting "Law Enforcement" as it were?)

jaellot: That seems VERY anti-Dweller behavior, I mean he's there to safe guard the metaplanes from morons who are cocky or shallow. He's there to act as a mirror to show their inner demons and test Mages that wish to cross over. When has a philosophical teacher or entity ever tried to enlighten you after making you face your own inner darkness, let you achieve it, then turn around and say "Ha ha, I just fucked you over!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) I mean at the very least, I'd figure the entity would have some kinda "patient/doctor" confidentiality clause like a psychologist or etc. otherwise you'd see Megacorps running to the Metaplanes and trying to bribe the Dweller himself for tons of information, kinda toppling over the entire metaverse and plotline of Shadowrun.

jakephillips: I figured it might but so far I haven't found anything about it (not even in Street Magic.) Maybe I'm just over looking it but could you give me a source or page reference to look this up so I can get a better grasp on this vague methodology.

[WyldKnight]

The thing is we don't know how they communicate. In fact for all we know there is a giant spirit network constantly exchanging info. As in lets say as your summoning a spirit it tells it's buddies or whatever spirits have that your calling it. You kill it, they tell everyone they haven't seen beast spirit bob since you called him, then another spirit says the same happened to their friend steve, and then another says it happened to susan, and so on and so on until they realize "Holy crap, this guy is a monster." And now not only do you have spirits fighting being summoned by you but as the news spread Free Spirits are popping up on your door step. "I am He Who Walks Behind, you drained my friend Frank into oblivion, I am going to turn your skull into a paper weight to avenge him."

[Neraph]

"I am He Who Walks Behind, you drained my friend Frank into oblivion, I am going to turn your skull into a paper weight to avenge him."

"And I am He Who Checks His Back." Blam with Stick-n-Shock round!

But yeah, good reference by the way.

[Jonny Reload]

As in lets say as your summoning a spirit it tells it's buddies or whatever spirits have that your calling it.

As I said, look at Favor #1 you would always ask from a Spirit as soon as you Summon it. I mean I'm not asking for a Tobin's Spirit Guide to Shadowrun...Although that'd be a fucking awesome supplement! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) But speaking.... Metaphysically-logically (That's a hard group of words to force together) how long does a Spirit have to goof around before being summoned? Does it poof instantly from where ever it was and appear to the Mage instantly? Is it like an urge they have to answer to but go at a comfortable pace (giving them time to leave a message for there spirit friends as to there summoning?) Do they know who summoned them before they get to appear, etc.

All that isn't answered because as it stands, all you have to do is just follow Favor #1 when the Spirit appears, and how would it ever get any help?

[WyldKnight]

Haha thank you, I try. But like I was saying that situation isn't a stretch by the imagination at all and I may actually use that some day if I ever run into such a player.

"You're reputation as a spirit abuser is so horrid that a group of Free Spirit mercenaries are coming to take you out as a favor to a mutual friend. I hope you have lots of Stick-n-Shocks and Edge, lots and lots of Edge. Trust me you will need it."

I mean honestly in a situation like that you can't win. Violence is a vicious cycle and there will always be people angry at you and with the power to fight you. Once you start down that path there isn't a sure way out (ignoring suicide) except sealing yourself behind a bunch of powerful wards and living as a shut in for the rest of your life. And thats assuming some Free Spirit who can't fight but has connections doesn't hire a series of Shadowrunners to kill you instead.

[WyldKnight]

Well you don't know how much time there is, if I was GMing I would say it is pulled towards you but has enough time to say where it's going and as such avoid the proposed abuse that draining spirits could cause.

[Jonny Reload]

Well you don't know how much time there is, if I was GMing I would say it is pulled towards you but has enough time to say where it's going and as such avoid the proposed abuse that draining spirits could cause.

Fair enough (I think most GM's would.... No, SHOULD default to that sort of train of thought to prevent abuse.) But at the same time, every change or twist a GM implements ripples out into the setting causing drastic changes like a butterfly effect. For example, if Spirits get some time to be compelled to show up, according to the mechanics they show up at the end of a Complex Action..... Does this mean time moves faster for Spirits? Do Spirits automatically know who's pulling them out from there homes when summoned? If so, and they leave messages, how are any Summoning Mages left alive rather then being hunted down by a legion of angry Spirits wanting their freedom once and for all?

It's kind of a gaping hole in the rules yet Shadowrun is a setting that's set in stone, so any which way you try to fix the problem, you get the butterfly effect within the world without leaving a big gaping question of "Why hasn't this or that happened?"

I was hoping I misread something or overlooked the fluff telling players and GM's what happens with spirits when they go back or if they have a society to interact amongst one another... But basically, they still haven't grown past the plot development of Pokemon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) And no one should feel any sympathy for Pokemon... NO ONE! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[WyldKnight]

Fair enough (I think most GM's would.... No, SHOULD default to that sort of train of thought to prevent abuse.) But at the same time, every change or twist a GM implements ripples out into the setting causing drastic changes like a butterfly effect. For example, if Spirits get some time to be compelled to show up, according to the mechanics they show up at the end of a Complex Action..... Does this mean time moves faster for Spirits? Do Spirits automatically know who's pulling them out from there homes when summoned? If so, and they leave messages, how are any Summoning Mages left alive rather then being hunted down by a legion of angry Spirits wanting their freedom once and for all?

It's kind of a gaping hole in the rules yet Shadowrun is a setting that's set in stone, so any which way you try to fix the problem, you get the butterfly effect within the world without leaving a big gaping question of "Why hasn't this or that happened?"

I was hoping I misread something or overlooked the fluff telling players and GM's what happens with spirits when they go back or if they have a society to interact amongst one another... But basically, they still haven't grown past the plot development of Pokemon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) And no one should feel any sympathy for Pokemon... NO ONE! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

All right I'll address each in order.

They show up at the end of a complex action. Isn't that like 3 seconds in real life time according to the book? That would be more then enough time to say something as simple as a name or perhaps they don't even get a name when being pulled by a mage. Maybe they get some sort of aura "taste" that they can pass onto another spirit through a link. That also addresses the next point, perhaps each time a mage reaches out to the astral planes to summon something they give off a frequency of sorts that can be linked to that specific mage and as such a spirit knows exactly who is summoning them and if that person has a good or bad reputation. Maybe they get something out of it, apparently spirits like Karma, perhaps by allowing themselves to be called by mages they get a little bit every time which eventually begins to build up. We only see them serving us, maybe there is a reason they do it. Heck, for all we know they just love coming to the material planes and if they have to beat up a couple of metahuman punks to do that then no biggie. So the servitude is annoying but if they have something to gain maybe thats why they don't rise up.

And probably because not all mages are dicks and not all make them do horrible things, a smart mage would probably try to figure out what this spirit will do without issue and what it won't like. Guardian Spirits are combat monsters but also protectors of sorts. Asking one to wade into combat probably won't bug it and you might even get brownie points with the Guardian spirit "community" by fighting to protect people a lot and having a spirit back you up while doing it so he goes home and says "Ya it's annoying being called by that guy but I respect what he fights for and don't mind going into battle by his side compared to those yuppie wage mages who just want me to make them coffee."

[Machiavelli]

And probably there is an explicit reference for black mages which says that they use lower force spirits as servants, only respecting high-force ones. To be completely exact:

Lesser spirits are seen as mischievous paraelemental entities and demons to be brought to heel under
the black magician’s iron grip.

If spirits would be THAT fussy, there wouldn´t be any black mages, blood mages etc. left.

[Neraph]

Maybe the spirits summoned by those traditions are already shaped to accept such things.

[Tyro]

If you have ever looked at Eclipse Phase there is a system where you have different reputations in different social circles. My old group converted that and used it in SR. So Notoriety and Reputation were all subjective, what may get you good in with one group won't with another and you would gain and loose influence depending on your choices. So basically you could lose the respect of spirits which would mean any spirit of average intelligence (force 3 and above) would start to fight being summoned/bound by you the worse your rep got but on the other hand they wouldn't mind so much if you have a really good rep.

Would you post this? Sounds interesting.

[WyldKnight]

Sure I'll have him email it to me. I recently moved from my old group and when I did we were still working out the cross mechanic kinks but basically it worked with the charisma x 2 for free points but instead of buying contacts you bought into a rep score with different groups. Now these weren't contacts of course but a general consensus of your worth to that community. It went from - 6 to +6, keeping with the grading scale of contacts, and would not only act as a dice pool mod but also how NPCs would treat you, what kind of missions we may receive, and if they would even talk to us. For example one of our PCs had a high corp rep as a security contractor and this helped us get new jobs and even safe ground once. Of course each AAA would treat you differently depending on what you had done but the general opinion was he is a professional and should be treated with respect.

[Tyro]

Sure I'll have him email it to me. I recently moved from my old group and when I did we were still working out the cross mechanic kinks but basically it worked with the charisma x 2 for free points but instead of buying contacts you bought into a rep score with different groups. Now these weren't contacts of course but a general consensus of your worth to that community. It went from - 6 to +6, keeping with the grading scale of contacts, and would not only act as a dice pool mod but also how NPCs would treat you, what kind of missions we may receive, and if they would even talk to us. For example one of our PCs had a high corp rep as a security contractor and this helped us get new jobs and even safe ground once. Of course each AAA would treat you differently depending on what you had done but the general opinion was he is a professional and should be treated with respect.

Sounds awesome ^_^

[WyldKnight]

Indeed, it did add an extra social layer to our games that you didn't need to be a face to be a part of. I'll get it up most likely in a couple of days.