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> Summoning spirits : as fast and easy as that ?
IKerensky
post Sep 6 2010, 08:02 AM
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Hi,

first of all I am not really complaining, but just checking to see if I didn't forget anything.

The Steet Shaman (as in SR4A but Elf and no rat) is in a fight. She have Magic 5, Summoning 5 . One Triad thug is running away with informations.

1st Round : the Shaman use a complexe action to Summon a Force 5 - Spirit of the Beasts. Dont use Edge. Spirit roll only 2 sucess (didn't use Edge to resist, could he have ? he got no reason to do so anyway). Shaman roll good and got 4 sucess. Got 2 services. Use Edge to resist a level 4 Drain and take no hit (why use Edge ? who knows, drain pool is 10 dice).

2nd Round : the Shaman order the spirit to Intercept the chinese, pointing to the fleeing guy.
2nd Round, second IP : the Spirit materialize in front of the fleeing man and easily pin him to the ground (Force 5 spirits aren't especially weak guys).

My pondering is about how easily and fast it was to conjure a very potent Spirit, a mere 3 seconds... I thought Spirits conjuration would have taken more time and be prepared in advance, not in the middle of a fight or on a whim. Did I forget anything ? I probably do.

Also Drain is very dependant on luck more than on spirit power and Force 5-6 spirits sound very easily controllable while quite strong... Afterall usually mages have rating 5-6 Magic.


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Mäx
post Sep 6 2010, 08:14 AM
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I don't see anythink that you might have forgotten, but you have to remember that summoning a force 6 spirit carriers a potential risk of you having to resist 12 points of drain damage which can have catastrophic consequences if you in a middle of a run.
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Makki
post Sep 6 2010, 08:14 AM
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you did it right.

concerning drain, there's an optional tule in SM suggesting summoning drain is Force/2+ spirit hits. it's more predictable
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Mooncrow
post Sep 6 2010, 08:18 AM
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Binding is what takes a long time, the initial summoning is quite fast. Yes, it makes it powerful. Any slower, though, and combat would be over before a mage could summon a spirit. And that would take a huge chunk of summoning's versatility.



(If you want to make the argument that limiting mages is warranted though, I won't argue)
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IKerensky
post Sep 6 2010, 08:40 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 6 2010, 08:14 AM) *
I don't see anythink that you might have forgotten, but you have to remember that summoning a force 6 spirit carriers a potential risk of you having to resist 12 points of drain damage which can have catastrophic consequences if you in a middle of a run.


Hum the odds to having to resist 12 pts of drain are 0.14% wich is definitely not something you will see everyday. And this is 12 pts of Stun damage.

Now you can expect to resist them with 12 dices (is there a way to up it more than maxing related stats ?), the odds you get the 3 success needed not to get down is only : 81.89%... And you can get many more dice and rules of 6 if Edging the drain (wich you should proably do).

So I think the risk is so minimal it isn't even worth taking into account. You have more chance of getting a major complication on your summoning roll.


*thanks for the http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~bcd/SR/dicerollcalc.html page for the people that made it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *
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mielikki
post Sep 6 2010, 09:05 AM
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I do see one thing that was forgotten here:

QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 6 2010, 10:02 AM) *
2nd Round : the Shaman order the spirit to Intercept the chinese, pointing to the fleeing guy.
2nd Round, second IP : the Spirit materialize in front of the fleeing man and easily pin him to the ground (Force 5 spirits aren't especially weak guys).


Switching between the astral and physical form of a spirit is complex action. The spirit can easily act right after the shaman's order in first IP of 2nd round, however he will not be able to do anything till the next IP, and he only has 2 IP if in material form.

I'd have the guy roll Reaction (+ possibly gymnastics or dodge) to see if he can avoid the spirit and run in a different direction - or crash in the spirit.

This might not seem much of a difference, but if the fleeing guy has a a trigger happy friend in a good position, then the spirit might not survive till his action. Seen that happen several times...
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Mäx
post Sep 6 2010, 09:18 AM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 6 2010, 10:40 AM) *
Hum the odds to having to resist 12 pts of drain are 0.14% wich is definitely not something you will see everyday. And this is 12 pts of Stun damage.

Now you can expect to resist them with 12 dices (is there a way to up it more than maxing related stats ?), the odds you get the 3 success needed not to get down is only : 81.89%... And you can get many more dice and rules of 6 if Edging the drain (wich you should proably do).

So I think the risk is so minimal it isn't even worth taking into account. You have more chance of getting a major complication on your summoning roll.

Your assuming that the summoner hasn't allready taken damage during the run from casting spells and being shot at.
Also while yes spirit getting 6 succes is very unlikely, it does has a 10% chance to get 4 succes and having to resist 8 points of drain isn't exactly fun in a middle of the run especially as at that point you nessesary didn't even get a spirit out of that deal.

Also thinking minimal risk not worth to be taken into acount is a great way to get your self killed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Saint Sithney
post Sep 6 2010, 09:54 AM
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Materializing takes the spirits action on that 2nd pass for the 2nd IP, so technically it doesn't get to whomp the guy until CT#3, by which point, the sammy could have filled any number of people with holes.

But, if you take a mage with more IPs, then the Spirit can Materialize on IP #1 of CT2 and attack on IP #2.
Still not faster than a gun though..

Edit: mielikki made this point while I was in the shower...
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IKerensky
post Sep 6 2010, 09:56 AM
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QUOTE (mielikki @ Sep 6 2010, 09:05 AM) *
I do see one thing that was forgotten here:



Switching between the astral and physical form of a spirit is complex action. The spirit can easily act right after the shaman's order in first IP of 2nd round, however he will not be able to do anything till the next IP, and he only has 2 IP if in material form.

I'd have the guy roll Reaction (+ possibly gymnastics or dodge) to see if he can avoid the spirit and run in a different direction - or crash in the spirit.

This might not seem much of a difference, but if the fleeing guy has a a trigger happy friend in a good position, then the spirit might not survive till his action. Seen that happen several times...


Would love to see what a trigger happy ganger could do to a Force 5/6 spirit... especially as I would rules there is a surprise roll when the Spirit materialize.

But, you are right the spirit had to materialise then act... except he can use his last action of 2nd round to materialise... after all he is astral in 2nd round so he have at last 3 action, right ?
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Ascalaphus
post Sep 6 2010, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (mielikki @ Sep 6 2010, 11:05 AM) *
This might not seem much of a difference, but if the fleeing guy has a a trigger happy friend in a good position, then the spirit might not survive till his action. Seen that happen several times...


It takes an impressively well-armed ganger to take down a F5 spirit.. that's Immunity to Normal Weapons (10) you're looking at.

Supposing a quite scary ganger with a Ruger Super Warhawk and Ex-Ex, that still requires 3 net successes on hitting the spirit, which has 5ish Reaction.. not too easy. And if you bypass ItNW, it still functions as armor dice, so that's about 15 dice for a damage resistance test.

If I was the ganger, I'd shoot the mage. Unless he has a Body of 6+, he can't really be better armored than the spirit. Also, geek the mage first, otherwise he might just summon more spirits/throw stunbolts.
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IKerensky
post Sep 6 2010, 10:30 AM
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Except the Mage stayed at the top flat while the gangers are running in the street... as always it is all circunstancial...
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Mäx
post Sep 6 2010, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Sep 6 2010, 12:06 PM) *
It takes an impressively well-armed ganger to take down a F5 spirit.. that's Immunity to Normal Weapons (10) you're looking at.

Supposing a quite scary ganger with a Ruger Super Warhawk and Ex-Ex, that still requires 3 net successes on hitting the spirit, which has 5ish Reaction.. not too easy. And if you bypass ItNW, it still functions as armor dice, so that's about 15 dice for a damage resistance test.

Taser works quite nicely and only needs the 1 nethit required to hit.(10/2=5 armor and the damage is 6,7 or 9 with the one nethit, depending on what model of a taser he has)
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IKerensky
post Sep 6 2010, 11:52 AM
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Make you wonder why they bother cary fire arms as Taser is so much better than anything else... sigh.

Anyway I dont think Taser is part of the classical gangers/triad gears... wich is weird as Triads are supposed to be very into occult.
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Dumori
post Sep 6 2010, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 6 2010, 12:52 PM) *
Make you wonder why they bother cary fire arms as Taser is so much better than anything else... sigh.

They do have a v. short range can be a big negative.
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IKerensky
post Sep 6 2010, 01:17 PM
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I double checked it and was surprised to see the range is shown to be up to 20 meters... I thought that taser was nearly close combat weapons...
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Dumori
post Sep 6 2010, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 6 2010, 02:17 PM) *
I double checked it and was surprised to see the range is shown to be up to 20 meters... I thought that taser was nearly close combat weapons...

It's still a -6 to hit at 20m also once your in 20m that spritys gonna hug you next turn so if you miss...
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IKerensky
post Sep 6 2010, 01:41 PM
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Given Astral speed and materialisaton I am surprised even 20 meters is enough... no reason why the Spirit cant wait for his 3rd PI in astral to materialise right in hand to hand range.

Distance only matters for people supporting the target.
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tagz
post Sep 6 2010, 03:18 PM
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In combat distance always matters for everyone, unless you're very loose with distances in combat. But, that said, using Astral to "hop" in combat is typically a good way to limit the effectiveness of spirits.

So having the spirit pop astral to close distance works kinda like this (assuming the spirit goes first in initiative as it likely has more dice):

IP1:
Spirit: Spirit uses complex action to shift to the Astral. Then uses free action for movement to where it see's target's aura.
Ganger: Runs

IP2:
Spirit: Free action to move up to ganger again. Complex action to shift back to physical realm. Cannot do much else this round, at least much that's useful.
Ganger: If he's taken a combat drug (likely) or is one of the lucky ones to have IP enhancements (less likely) he gets a free shot on the spirit.

Now we've got to go to the next turn to get a hit off.



Now me, I'd have the spirit close the distance in the meat. Most spirits can move as fast or faster then humans, meaning they can at least keep pace unless the target is built for speed (or a troll... trolls and speed is just crazy). It can be targeted doing this but will have more options.

IP1:
Spirit: Spirit uses free action to close some of the distance, then uses elemental attack on ganger.
Ganger: Ganger shoots at spirit at penalties from running and possibly damage from elemental attack. Likely will not penetrate ITNW.

IP2:
Spirit: Spirit closes more distance with another free action. If close it might use unarmed combat or a close range power. If not close then another elemental attack does nicely.
Ganger: If IP enhanced somehow will fire again, at likely same or worse penalties.

The big difference here is that it will likely take an additional turn and let the ganger get a free shot on the spirit to "pop" in front of him. And while all this is happening, the Street Sam is taking his/her actions. So, in all likely-hood the ganger drops before the spirit gets a chance to attack.

Also, an addition to IPs does not take place until the next combat Turn. So shifting to Astral means you don't pick up IP#3 until the combat turn it shifted is over and a new one has started. It works like this for all IP bonuses.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 6 2010, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 6 2010, 01:40 AM) *
Hum the odds to having to resist 12 pts of drain are 0.14% wich is definitely not something you will see everyday. And this is 12 pts of Stun damage.

Now you can expect to resist them with 12 dices (is there a way to up it more than maxing related stats ?), the odds you get the 3 success needed not to get down is only : 81.89%... And you can get many more dice and rules of 6 if Edging the drain (wich you should proably do).

So I think the risk is so minimal it isn't even worth taking into account. You have more chance of getting a major complication on your summoning roll.

*thanks for the http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~bcd/SR/dicerollcalc.html page for the people that made it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *


I don't know... Our mage took 20 drain from a Summoned Force 5 Spirit once (and with the 15 Dice and Edge Spent to resist it, he ONLY took 11 boxes of damage... Of course, he had a penchant for abusing spirits (Spell Binding and other shenanigans), and the spirit resisted the summoning with Edge (with 10 Hits on resistance towards the summoning), but that is the chance you take when you play with spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Neurosis
post Sep 6 2010, 10:11 PM
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No idea what the RAW says, but if you think that a summoner is getting away with a spirit too 'easy', you CAN have the spirit use edge to resist getting summoned....using it to reroll after the test would probably be best. If you roll five dice for a Force 5 spirit, get one success, decide to Edge and go "oh there's three more successes" it's the difference between the shaman soaking two drain and soaking EIGHT drain.

Also in your above example did you take into account that Materializing is a Complex Action?

I definitely would not say that summoning is overpowered though. Remember that a Street Sam can just shoot the fleeing character with a stick-n-shock round in the same pass without taking ANY drain or waiting for the spirit to appear.
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IKerensky
post Sep 6 2010, 10:45 PM
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Why would the spirit have to spend an action to go back to astral, isn't he in astral in the first place, he just need to materialize when he reach the target.

About the IP1 the spirit use his free move action after the gangers so he dont need to move again after materializing (free action could be taken out of your own initiative rating) it is far more logical and better translate simultaneous action.

The sammies weren't able to shoot the guy because they were ambushing him at an appartment top floor. But the ganger manage to smell the trick and didn't enter, deciding to run down stairs. Sammies goes in pursuit, what they didn't plan was that the ganger was a physical adept and use great leap to go downstair a lot faster they were expecting and he have headstart.

So they weren't in a position to take pot shot at him, magical interception was the trick. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(in fact the ganger was intercepted by one of the runner that was disguised as the concierge and that shot him flat with his colt deputy (that's where I discovered the runner specialised in infiltration, disguise and lockpicking is using a Colt Deputy oO and where he discovered you cant use silencer on thoses ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ).

About the use of Edge to resist summon I am unsure of when I should use it, always seems too harsh, especially for a quite random summoning. I think it is more usefull in case of binding or attemps to summon again specific spirit.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 7 2010, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 6 2010, 03:45 PM) *
About the use of Edge to resist summon I am unsure of when I should use it, always seems too harsh, especially for a quite random summoning. I think it is more usefull in case of binding or attemps to summon again specific spirit.


Well, at our table, we use it for summoning any Spirit of Force 4 or greater... they spend the edge to Re-roll any failures in most cases. They also spend Edge to resist any Binding at Force 4 or Greater...
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Neurosis
post Sep 7 2010, 12:59 AM
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Yeah definitely use it for Binding spirits REALLY don't want to get bound, yo.

QUOTE
Why would the spirit have to spend an action to go back to astral, isn't he in astral in the first place, he just need to materialize when he reach the target.


Technically, this is legal:

R1, IP1: Summoner summons.
R2, IP1: Summoner commands spirit . Spirit gets in place and materializes.
R2, IP2: Spirit pins guy.

Functionally no difference with waht you said, BUT what you described is...

QUOTE
2nd Round, second IP : the Spirit materialize in front of the fleeing man and easily pin him to the ground (Force 5 spirits aren't especially weak guys).


Which is technically impossible because a spirit CANNOT Materialize and pin someone in the same IP! Materializing is a complex action, just like melee combat. Hence what you are describing happening on the second IP of the 2nd Round isn't possible. Going from Astral to Physical is a Complex Action.

Anyway...if the guy was out of line of sight--like way out of line of sight--wouldn't the spirit technically had to have spent time using the Search power to find him? And if the guy ISN'T way out of line of sight, can't the Samurai just catch him and nail him? Of course I'm sure I'm not picturing the situation right. I wasn't there.

Also...unsilenced revolvers make me a sad panda. I guess he could use...subsonic ammo? Unsure why he's so in love with the Deputy anyway.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 7 2010, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 6 2010, 06:59 PM) *
Yeah definitely use it for Binding spirits REALLY don't want to get bound, yo.



R1, IP1: Summoner summons.
R2, IP1: Summoner commands spirit (assuming he has a pass). Spirit gets in place and materializes.
R2, IP2: Spirit pins guy.

Functionally no difference, BUT what you described is...



Which is technically impossible because a spirit CANNOT Materialize and pin someone in the same IP! Materializing is a complex action, just like melee combat. Hence what you are describing happening on the second IP of the 2nd Round isn't possible. Going from Astral to Physical is a Complex Action.

Anyway...if the guy was out of line of sight--like way out of line of sight--wouldn't the spirit technically had to have spent time using the Search power to find him? And if the guy ISN'T way out of line of sight, can't the Samurai just catch him and nail him? Of course I'm sure I'm not picturing the situation right. I wasn't there.

Also...unsilenced revolvers make me a sad panda. I guess he could use...subsonic ammo? Unsure why he's so in love with the Deputy anyway.


Ummmmm, Spirits get Multiple IP per Round, and your Mage may also have Multiple Initiative Passes... Your examples continue to not take this into account... But your right, it is highly unlikely that a spirit could materialize and Pin an opponent in a single IP... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
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Neraph
post Sep 7 2010, 01:04 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 6 2010, 07:15 PM) *
Well, at our table, we use it for summoning any Spirit of Force 4 or greater... they spend the edge to Re-roll any failures in most cases. They also spend Edge to resist any Binding at Force 4 or Greater...

Just... Ouch. Is magic really that much of a problem in your games? That's some hard-core GM predjudice.

QUOTE (Neurosis Posted Today, 07:59 PM )
Which is technically impossible because a spirit CANNOT Materialize and pin someone in the same IP!

That's okay, because technically spirits cannot Materialize.

In any event, it would take at least two Initiative Passes for that to work.
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