[X] My Assistant

[Neurosis]

That's okay, because technically spirits cannot Materialize.

What? Spirits have the Materialization power. It lets them...Materialize? Where are you getting "technically spirits cannot materialize from". Not everyone is rocking a possession tradition.

Ummmmm, Spirits get Multiple IP per Round, and your Mage may also have Multiple Initiative Passes... Your examples continue to not take this into account... But your right, it is highly unlikely that a spirit could materialize and Pin an opponent in a single IP..

If the mage has multiple IP why, in the first example, did he wait until turn 2 to command the spirit? That's why I assumed he had one IP.

Also, if I recall correctly materialized spirits have a maximum of 2 IP. Spirits have 3IP in Astral and 2IP when materialized.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just... Ouch. Is magic really that much of a problem in your games? That's some hard-core GM predjudice.

Magic is not a problem in our games... There are a lot of things to keep magic controlled, and this rule (Spirits can use Edge for any purpose after all, just like a character can) is one of the reasons why; Believe me, it is not a predjudice on anyone's part... In Fact, it tends to maintain the verisimilitude of the game a lot better than having no constraints would. If everyone is summoning High Powered Spirits (I think that I heard once here on Dumpshock that the average Force Spirit summoned was 9; here anyways), then the game tends to bereak down a lot. When there are canon limits to what is common/typical, then you tend to see a more believable distribution of spirits in game... Otherwise, you see nothing but Force 9+ Spirits, and that just is not a lot of fun for a lot of people... Believe me, Mages are quite powerful enough already, and a common sense limit to their power is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As always, I know that not everyone agrees with this sentiment, but there you go, YMMV. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What? Spirits have the Materialization power. It lets them...Materialize? Where are you getting "technically spirits cannot materialize from". Not everyone is rocking a possession tradition.

Materialize is a Physical Power, and cannot be used in the Astral Plane... But you MUST have an Astral Form to activate Materialize (Which means you are on the Astral Plane)... How do you activate a Physical POwer on a Plane that does not allow activation of Physical Powers? Catch 22... Materialization, Possession and Inhabitation all have this issue if I remember correctly.

If the mage has multiple IP why, in the first example, did he wait until turn 2 to command the spirit? That's why I assumed he had one IP.

Also, if I recall correctly materialized spirits have a maximum of 2 IP. Spirits have 3IP in Astral and 2IP when materialized.

Can't answer the first for you (Maybe he was casting spells?), but the second is indeed correct...

[Neraph]

What? Spirits have the Materialization power. It lets them...Materialize? Where are you getting "technically spirits cannot materialize from". Not everyone is rocking a possession tradition.

Spirits are initially summoned on the Astral Realm. You cannot use Physical Powers on the Astral. Materialization, Possession, and Inhabitation are all Physical Powers. By RAW, spirits cannot use Materialization, Possession, or Inhabitation.

FYI, I do in fact suspend that limitation, but only for the purposes of those Powers.

EDIT: Look at Type, under Powers, page 286, SR4, and the descriptions for those three Powers. Or page 204 from Running Wild.

[Neurosis]

That is obviously the equivalent of a typo! Why would ANYONE interpret it that way? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That is obviously the equivalent of a typo! Why would ANYONE interpret it that way?

It is not an interpretation though... NO PHYSICAL powers (This includes all Physical Spells by the way) may be used on the Astral Plane, except for these 3 apparently... Though I do think that someone was not paying attention when they wrote those particular abilities up though...

[Neraph]

Obviously those were intended to work, although by strict RAW they cannot. There should be something about them being able to work despite their Physical nature in their descriptions, but there is not.

I personally think it's fun to find things like that.

[Neurosis]

YA THINK!?

I mean, the entire PURPOSE of Materialization is to manifest in the physical world. The TEXT of the power is "Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into the material world, thus allowing them to interact with physical beings". To any sane person, that should override whatever stupid technicality makes Materialization impossible.

I just think that this is very very silly. It is obviously a mistake. When an NPC in a published adventure has an Initiative of 3 and has 10 IP, because someone accidentally switched the numbers around, would you have them go ten times a turn?

HERE'S ANOTHER THING:

How did they not CATCH this between SR4 and SR4A!?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

YA THINK!?

I mean, the entire PURPOSE of Materialization is to manifest in the physical world. The TEXT of the power is "Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into the material world, thus allowing them to interact with physical beings". To any sane person, that should override whatever stupid technicality makes Materialization impossible.

I just think that this is very very silly. It is obviously a mistake. When an NPC in a published adventure has an Initiative of 3 and has 10 IP, because someone accidentally switched the numbers around, would you have them go ten times a turn?

HERE'S ANOTHER THING:

How did they not CATCH this between SR4 and SR4A!?

Indeed....

And who Knows... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neraph]

When an NPC in a published adventure has an Initiative of 3 and has 10 IP, because someone accidentally switched the numbers around, would you have them go ten times a turn?

When have I ever said that I rabidly adhere to RAW in my games? And please, stop yelling. Caps lock is not Cruise Control.

[jakephillips]

Mid range spirits 4-7 will smash regular guys. Just add spirit of man with optional power to cast one of your spells or got forbid fire elemental, with energy aura for +4 melee damage. Most mooks and lone star patrol officers folks can't hurt a f5 spirit thats why magic fights magic and they call in back up. As for always spending edge to resist summoning I reserve that for mages that abuse their spirits or rebind after they have already bound them once. But as the guy says YMMV on that and every one has house rules and styles of play that make their home game fun. Bound spirits are even faster call as a simple action and shoot the bad guy with your other simple.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Magic is not a problem in our games... There are a lot of things to keep magic controlled, and this rule (Spirits can use Edge for any purpose after all, just like a character can) is one of the reasons why; Believe me, it is not a predjudice on anyone's part... In Fact, it tends to maintain the verisimilitude of the game a lot better than having no constraints would. If everyone is summoning High Powered Spirits (I think that I heard once here on Dumpshock that the average Force Spirit summoned was 9; here anyways), then the game tends to bereak down a lot. When there are canon limits to what is common/typical, then you tend to see a more believable distribution of spirits in game... Otherwise, you see nothing but Force 9+ Spirits, and that just is not a lot of fun for a lot of people... Believe me, Mages are quite powerful enough already, and a common sense limit to their power is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As always, I know that not everyone agrees with this sentiment, but there you go, YMMV. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Without the rule in place at our table I never summon a spirit less than force 6 unless it is for trivial tasks or amusement. I initially thought it was a weird table rule, but the more I have played the more I think it is a great way to handle things. Spirits are awesomely powerful, and it is fantastically easy to summon up a force 8 or 9 one out of the gates when they do not use edge. And for those talking about well on the fly in a run you don't ant to risk damage I say they last til sunrise/sunset and go read the first aid rules again. It is not hard to summon one up at breakfast and patch up on a bad resistance roll.

The rules basically say spirits can and will use edge if they want to resist the summons. The potential reasons they gave were abusive summoner and the spirit feels the discrepancy in power is such that you are not worthy to summon him. How a spirit thinks he is too bad assed to be summoned by you is a GM call TJs table went with force 4+, I have heard others say above the magic rating of the summoner. I prefer TJs since a few runs in and that isn't a functional limit on a summoner focused mage.

[Neurosis]

When have I ever said that I rabidly adhere to RAW in my games? And please, stop yelling. Caps lock is not Cruise Control.

I never thought about the concept of RAW v. RAI before coming to Dumpshock. Since then I have thought about little else. Sorry for 'yelling'. It is moderately easier to hit the caps lock key then highlight something and tag it as bold. Anyway, I'm glad you don't interpret the rule that way and I hope that no one does. The fact that anyone could think that such a retarded mistake is what the developers intended and run a game where spirits are unable to manifest makes me die a little inside.

Mid range spirits 4-7 will smash regular guys. Just add spirit of man with optional power to cast one of your spells or got forbid fire elemental, with energy aura for +4 melee damage. Most mooks and lone star patrol officers folks can't hurt a f5 spirit thats why magic fights magic and they call in back up. As for always spending edge to resist summoning I reserve that for mages that abuse their spirits or rebind after they have already bound them once. But as the guy says YMMV on that and every one has house rules and styles of play that make their home game fun. Bound spirits are even faster call as a simple action and shoot the bad guy with your other simple.

Here is one thing I think about spirits that is very silly. The most important determining factor of whether or not a mundane character can hurt a manifested spirit isn't weapon skill, Willpower, or Charisma (Attack of Will as written is highly ineffective)...the most important factor in determining if you can harm a spirit through it's "Immunity to Normal Weapons"? The AP of your weapon. Which to me clashes hard with the fluff of "Immunity to Normal Weapons" which is that spirits are immune to guns because they are magical and ethereal. APDS ammo should not be the perfect choice for "Banishing".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Here is one thing I think about spirits that is very silly. The most important determining factor of whether or not a mundane character can hurt a manifested spirit isn't weapon skill, Willpower, or Charisma (Attack of Will as written is highly ineffective)...the most important factor in determining if you can harm a spirit through it's "Immunity to Normal Weapons"? The AP of your weapon. Which to me clashes hard with the fluff of "Immunity to Normal Weapons" which is that spirits are immune to guns because they are magical and ethereal. APDS ammo should not be the perfect choice for "Banishing".

Well... to be a smartass for a second... APDS is not the perfect ammunition choice for killing Spirits, Stick and Shock is, though APDS/AV is a close second... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Okay, Sorry about that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
But that is really the only choice for a Mundane other than Attacks of Will, which is pretty suicidal if you really think about it, though it CAN be accomplished, if you are a bit lucky that is...

[Neurosis]

With attack of Will you roll just willpower. Just Willpower against the spirit's Reaction + Unarmed Combat (like 10-11 Dice for a Force 4 Fire Elemental). Good luck. If you hit, you deal a base of Charisma. Any character who would have the attributes to be good at attack of will is probably already a mage.

And, about the ammo...God I hope this doesn't lead into another RAW/RAI situation. I really thought those two were always the same and now I seem to be learning that they are always different:

SticknShock still counts as a normal weapon and requires 4 (5?) net hits to bypass the Hardened Armor of a Force 5 materialized spirit. Spirits do not resist electricity damage with only half impact because that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the rules? Well I guess it depends what kind of a spirit. Does a fire spirit care about being electrocuted? Probably not. And an earth spirit maybe should be flat out immune to electricity damage. But maybe a water spirit would not like SnS. Although of course now that I think about it, it's kind of arbitrary to count the AP of APDS and not Stick'nShock

[Darkeus]

Attacks of Will is the only way a mundane can affect a spirit with ItNW in my campaigns. Well, you either use elemental effects like real fire, water, lightning (electricity) or the such. Stick N' Shock does not work for me because I cannot imagine that some little barbed hook can latch into hardened armor that is part of a magical being to deliver the electric in the first place!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

With attack of Will you roll just willpower. Just Willpower against the spirit's Reaction + Unarmed Combat (like 10-11 Dice for a Force 4 Fire Elemental). Good luck. If you hit, you deal a base of Charisma. Any character who would have the attributes to be good at attack of will is probably already a mage.

And, about the ammo...God I hope this doesn't lead into another RAW/RAI situation. I really thought those two were always the same and now I seem to be learning that they are always different:

SticknShock still counts as a normal weapon and requires 4 (5?) net hits to bypass the Hardened Armor of a Force 5 materialized spirit. Spirits do not resist electricity damage with only half impact because that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the rules? Well I guess it depends what kind of a spirit. Does a fire spirit care about being electrocuted? Probably not. And an earth spirit maybe should be flat out immune to electricity damage. But maybe a water spirit would not like SnS. Although of course now that I think about it, it's kind of arbitrary to count the AP of APDS and not Stick'nShock

Yes, Attacks of Will for a Mundane is a gamble, but sometimes you just have to use what you have...

As for the Ammo... No worries, It was just a comment on the availability of resources for a mundane to take on a Spirit... As for the debate (and it is a continuous debate, make no mistake) on the effectiveness of the various ammunitions for Spirits; I see no issues with using the AP of the rounds as described... after all, it is the ONLY effective means for a mundane to deal with a spirit most of the time... Any good Mage/Adept has other means of removing spirits, but mundanes only have the specialized ammunition... gives them a fighting chance... and just becasue the spirit has Hardened Armor, it does not mean that it bounces ammunition like a TANK does (WEll mostly anyways). It just makes the spirit a little harder to disrupt is all... Spirits do take stun after all, where a vehicle completely ignores such trivialities......

[Neraph]

The AP of your weapon. Which to me clashes hard with the fluff of "Immunity to Normal Weapons" which is that spirits are immune to guns because they are magical and ethereal. APDS ammo should not be the perfect choice for "Banishing".

Immunity isn't really Immunity. Check the Immunity Fire thread for a few page discussion about that.

And Stick-n-Shock rounds are way better than APDS for smashing spirits, IMO. They're more easily accessable, you can start with them in chargen, and they're nonlethal for other opponents.

Also, I'm starting to favor the flavor of Calling mages more and more. If you use the Calling rules instead of the Conjuring ones, you end up with more balance and less Edgy spirits. At least, in theory.

[Mooncrow]

Personally, I just make Anchoring way less (stupidly) expensive, change the rules on it a bit, and have Caster Shells be at least semi-prevalent for taking out the big boy spirits.

But I do play with much higher magic incidence than most.

[Neurosis]

Considering I'm not even sure what you're talking about, I'm sure you do! : )

Immunity isn't really Immunity. Check the Immunity Fire thread for a few page discussion about that.

At high enough Force it effectively is really for real immunity. A Force 10 Spirit more or less cannot be harmed by normal weapons. They have Hardened Armor 20 against all forms of mundane damage. Hardened armor of 20 is more or less actual immunity. (Welp I guess Anti-Vehicular rockets and Assault Cannons being used by experts are getting through, but very little short of that.)

[Neraph]

The Big railguns do -1/2 AP and then another -10. The Thunderstruck does -1/2 then -5. Stick-n-Shock is -1/2 and you only need 5 successes for dmg to go through. Flamethrowers are -1/2.

Or a Manabolt.

EDIT: Or laser guns.

EDIT EDIT: Or Mana Static.

[Neurosis]

Manabolts are not mundane nor is mana static.

Five successes are hard to get against a moving target, and even a Force 9 Fire Elemental has Reaction 12 or so. So at higher levels even Stick'n'Shock is pretty ineffective (thank goodness). I guess you're right about the Railguns but then again Railguns are magic. <3

Flamethrowers seem like a great thematic choice for dealing with, say, Water Elementals.

[Neraph]

I never said Manabolt and Mana Static were mundane methods.

Laser guns are also fairly effective, as I mentioned.


Also, a Reaction of 12 means you get about 3 successes. With a dicepool of 20 (easy-peasy to get) you can expect 6 successes, which is 3 net, which would meet the spirit's armor. If you shell out for a TacNet you can bump your dicepool to 22+ easily, making your last success or two required to hurt the thing with SnS rounds.

Also, can someone quote where it says BF/FA modified damage is calculated after checking for Hardened Armor? I remember that rule existing, but don't know the source.

I refuse to talk about Flamethrowers based on the Immunity Fire thread. Don't want to start that up on this thread again.

EDIT: No, flamethrowers are ok. This is talking about ItNW, not ItF. Bring on the Blessed Promethium, Brother-Captain.

[WyldKnight]

In my old group a mundane could take banishing if only used for attacks of will. We had a dwarf street sam who decided to take up banishing to be more effective in a magical fight. Eventually he got some good at it we had him handling the spirits while we took the conjuror, MBW 3 was a big help but the main help was having two more IPs.

[Neraph]

It should be noted (I don't remember seeing it mentioned yet) that you can only spot-summon one spirit in this manner anyways. I'd call that a balancing factor. Plus the unpredictability of the Drain. Summoning that one F5 spirit, even without it using Edge can put you flat on your back.