[X] My Assistant

[Saint Sithney]

Is it time for me to bring up the fact that Spirits do not have a stated Immunity to Toxins?

FIGHTIN' GHOSTS WITH PEPPER PUNCH DOOT DOOT DO DO DOOO!

Oh, also vehicles. They have no toxin resistance either..

Ooooooh FIGHTIN' CARS WITH PEPPER PUNCH DOOT DOOT DO DO DOOO!

[Mäx]

Is it time for me to bring up the fact that Spirits do not have a stated Immunity to Toxins?

Unless its a magical toxin, the get ITNW against it like everything else-

[Neraph]

Oh, also vehicles. They have no toxin resistance either..

Ooooooh FIGHTIN' CARS WITH PEPPER PUNCH DOOT DOOT DO DO DOOO!

Cars are immune to stun. Two shots with P4MO is effective, though.

Unless its a magical toxin, the get ITNW against it like everything else-

No they do not. Toxins work off of a Toxin Resistance Test, not a Damage Resistance Test. ItNW would work against the capsule round or dart, but not the toxin it carries.

As Written.

[TommyTwoToes]

Cars are immune to stun. Two shots with P4MO is effective, though.


No they do not. Toxins work off of a Toxin Resistance Test, not a Damage Resistance Test. ItNW would work against the capsule round or dart, but not the toxin it carries.

As Written.

Ah the absurdity of RAW...guess those toxins work on drones too...well the non-stun damage portion of the affects anyway.

Can drones catch VITAS?

[Darkeus]

Sometimes I wonder if the definition of "totally ridiculous" is different for me than for some people.

Toxins working on spirits? On cars? Bullets that can "shock" a spirit?

Geeze, just because elemental effects can halve ItNW, that does not mean SnS can.

And no, a spirit can not be made nauseous with a sonic attack!

Common sense and maybe some previous edition sense is really needed sometimes.

[Neraph]

Geeze, just because elemental effects can halve ItNW, that does not mean SnS can.

Why? Stick-n-Shock rounds are an elemental effect - that's why they're listed as dealing Electricity damage.

[Machiavelli]

I don´t want to warm up the old quarrel again, but SnS-ammo overloads the nervous system with a low voltage charge. Do spirits have a nervous system? Common sense is the magic word.

[Neraph]

I don´t want to warm up the old quarrel again, but SnS-ammo overloads the nervous system with a low voltage charge. Do spirits have a nervous system? Common sense is the magic word.

That's why you take the -2 to all actions and have a chance to drop unconscious - the electricity damage is a seperate matter. I wonder, would a Spirit struck by lightning in your game just laugh about it also?

If it's such an issue, simply make spirits immune to the -2 and the Test or Drop.

[Rand]

I didn't read all the other posts so....

In my game, I have it take 1 minute per force point to summon a spirit. I don't like the speed of it either, and much prefer it to be something they have to pre-plan, at least to a degree. If the samuraii or anyone else has to pre-plan on certain gear ans such, then the mages should a similar limitation. IMO.

[Rand]

As for when a spirit will use Edge or not to resist summoning, I thought of something I might implement: Whenever a mage/shaman tries to summon a spirit with a higher force than the summoners Charisma, it will use Edge to resist. It give some more importance to Charisma, and aren't possession-based traditions linked to Charisma anyway? If so, it sort of makes sense then. (To me.)

[Neurosis]

I don´t want to warm up the old quarrel again, but SnS-ammo overloads the nervous system with a low voltage charge. Do spirits have a nervous system? Common sense is the magic word.

QFT.

[Yerameyahu]

That indeed is an old quarrel. Here's the old answer:

The most commonly accepted interpretation of their data is that spirits are largely composed of some kind of common arcane material regardless of apparent structure—a recombinant protoplasm that replicates function, mass, texture and properties near enough as to provide no physical difference.

Despite having no nervous systems, spirits react negatively to damage to their physical and astral forms—similar to how a physical creature displays pain.

Now, this could simply mean that they react to damage with pain (wound mods). Or, it could mean that they take taser damage as flesh. Either is equally valid; pick the one you prefer for your game, but the default is that they take damage as normal.

[DireRadiant]

In 3 IP the street sam anyone else will have already filled the fleeing ganger with 30 rounds of ammo. 60 nuyen. No Drain.

[Darkeus]

Why? Stick-n-Shock rounds are an elemental effect - that's why they're listed as dealing Electricity damage.

No, Stick N Shock delivers an Elemental effect if it hits. It is not a magical lightning bullet that is shooting sparks as it sits in the gun chamber. A Stick N Shock round must first penetrate (Just like a taser) to deliver a shock. Yes, the electrical shock is an elemental effect but I seriously cannot believe that a dart (And that is pretty much what it is, a dart with a mini-capacitor in it) could penetrate hardened armor to deliver the shock in the first place.

Again, HARDENED armor. To me, this means that it is as tough as steel. Can you shoot a dart into a tank? Hell no!! So what would make you believe that you can shoot a dart into something with armor so tough it is supposed to bounce bullets off it.

SnS ammo was something that was poorly thought out and probably added because it kicked off someone's kewl button. The stuff is sort of impossible by the laws of physics, is explained poor enough as to cause confusion on what damage it causes and what it can be used on, and just creates more problems than it is worth.. So I do what all other editions of Shadowrun have done, not included it.

No SnS..... Hmmmm, still looks and plays like Shadowrun to me. Carry on people.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

That's a house rule that you're free to impose, Darkeus.

[Darkeus]

That's a house rule that you're free to impose, Darkeus.

Your dang right. Actually, that isn't even a house rule. It is totally a "Yeah, that does not exist" thing.

Trust me, Shadowrun plays much better when you ignore some of the silly stuff they threw in with 4th edition.

Stick N Shock is just worthless. There are two ways to fight spirits, with magic or with Attacks of Will. That is how it has always been in Shadowrun and that is how it should be.

Let us not play the house rule thing. I am sure pretty much no one runs Shadowrun by RAW. We all use House rules in one way or another. Well, except for Cain maybe.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mooncrow]

Your dang right. Actually, that isn't even a house rule. It is totally a "Yeah, that does not exist" thing.

Trust me, Shadowrun plays much better when you ignore some of the silly stuff they threw in with 4th edition.

Stick N Shock is just worthless. There are two ways to fight spirits, with magic or with Attacks of Will. That is how it has always been in Shadowrun and that is how it should be.

Let us not play the house rule thing. I am sure pretty much no one runs Shadowrun by RAW. We all use House rules in one way or another. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

True, but it's generally helpful to keep in mind which is which =)

(SNS magically vanished from my table about two weeks after 4th came out; we haven't missed it)

[Yerameyahu]

What's the problem? When you make a gross change to the default rules, it's a house rule. No one said that was a dirty word.

[Darkeus]

True, but it's generally helpful to keep in mind which is which =)

(SNS magically vanished from my table about two weeks after 4th came out; we haven't missed it)

Yeah, I know. "For the spirit of debate" and all that jazz. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But I think I am also commenting on Rules as Intended. I just can't think that the authors had killing spirits in mind when they made this ammo. Let alone it affecting something with the armor of at least a SWAT van!

[Darkeus]

What's the problem? When you make a gross change to the default rules, it's a house rule. No one said that was a dirty word.

Sorry, sometimes it is used as a dirty word around here as if house rules have no merit. Sometimes house rules are MUCH better than the crazy rules that come with the game.

I wasn't trying to be uppity or confrontational though. Sorry if it was taken that way.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Your dang right. Actually, that isn't even a house rule. It is totally a "Yeah, that does not exist" thing.

Trust me, Shadowrun plays much better when you ignore some of the silly stuff they threw in with 4th edition.

Stick N Shock is just worthless. There are two ways to fight spirits, with magic or with Attacks of Will. That is how it has always been in Shadowrun and that is how it should be.

Let us not play the house rule thing. I am sure pretty much no one runs Shadowrun by RAW. We all use House rules in one way or another. Well, except for Cain maybe.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We use SnS as listed in the Books, as Elemental Damage, and have yet to have any problems whatsoever... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) And no, it is not the default ammunition of our team...
Just sayin'

Oh, and SnS actually effects those in Military Grade Armor just as it does a Spirit... you still have/get to resist the damage, but with 1/2 your armor... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

I've always interpreted the spirit's ItNW as sort of the opposite of the kind of Hardened armor you see on a tank.

Spirits are made of ectoplasm. You shoot a bullet at ectoplasm, and it passes right through insignificantly.
The idea is that you have to cause a significant enough disturbance to the endoplasmic form to disrupt it, hence "Disrupted" is the term for a spirit who has been all blowed up.

Does this interpretation mean that armor piercing from APDS is nonsense? Well yeah, but whatevs.
Does this interpretation mean that having to overcome armor resistance before FA fire adds increased effect is nonsense? Also yes.


On a related note, here's a tasty question for the masses.

Blast damage. An elemental effect from Street Magic. Resisted with half impact armor. Super knockdown effect.
High Explosives. Actual explosion as seen in Physics. AP-2. Can't hit the broad side of a barn usually.

How is that fair? How the hell doesn't an HE grenade do blast damage?


Magic is dumb.
I'm going to go blow up a bunch of cars using Whitestar now...

[Neurosis]

On the plus side an HE Grenade is 'Force 10'? : P

[Mäx]

On the plus side an HE Grenade is 'Force 10'? : P

Only in 1m radius, it get worse fast, unlike an area effect spell.
also it's all too possible for it to go of between your legs, even if you got a critical success.

[Neurosis]

Your dang right. Actually, that isn't even a house rule. It is totally a "Yeah, that does not exist" thing.

Trust me, Shadowrun plays much better when you ignore some of the silly stuff they threw in with 4th edition.

Stick N Shock is just worthless. There are two ways to fight spirits, with magic or with Attacks of Will. That is how it has always been in Shadowrun and that is how it should be.

Let us not play the house rule thing. I am sure pretty much no one runs Shadowrun by RAW. We all use House rules in one way or another. Well, except for Cain maybe.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I thought I was running Shadowrun by RAW until someone brought up that god damn "spirits can't materialize" bullshit. Then I realized I was running by RAI like it or not.

Training wheels off.

Only in 1m radius, it get worse fast, unlike an area effect spell.
also it's all too possible for it to go of between your legs, even if you got a critical success.

Isn't that literally impossible? Scatter is 1d6 Meters -2 Per Net Hit. Critical Success = 4 Net Hits. 1d6 - 8 = always 0. Hence, no scatter. Hence, grenade goes where you want on a net hit?

Unless you're referencing the rules for Throwing Back Grenades (which when I think about them makes me wonder why there are no rules for COOKING grenades).