Low tech locks? Options

[yesferatu]

So here's a stupid thought I had this weekend...

Wouldn't a reinforced combination lock (like a bike lock) be preferable to maglocks/passcodes?

There's no way to pick it or hack it. You have to be in the room with it and turn it by hand.

If you had like a 10 digit combo lock, what the hell could a hacker do to it?

You could always cut through it or blow it up or whatever, but the same can be said for more traditional locks.

[Yerameyahu]

There is *not* no way to pick or hack those kinds of locks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Angelone]

I agree that they would be preferable in that you have to be there to get around them, but all it takes is a bolt cutter. Plus they are so out of style, the retro look was so last year.

[Catadmin]

Yeah, but if your runners don't have the right tools or skills, a lock like that could really throw off their stride and add some spice to the run. @=)

There's something to be said for "old fashioned security."

[Yerameyahu]

Anyway, yesferatu, it's not a stupid thought:

Using Locksmith
Though maglocks have replaced mechanical locks as the security system of choice, many older facilities still employ traditional locks. Others use them as complementary systems or because they’re now uncommon. Lockpicking is a Locksmith + Agility (Lock rating, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test. See Locks, p. 262.

Don't forget that 'dumb' locks are indeed *less* secure than more advanced maglocks.

Breaking a Lock is (Locksmith + Agility, Rating, 1 Combat Turn)

Cracking a Maglock is:
Open the case (Hardware + Logic, Rating*2, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Anti-Tamper Hardware + Logic, Rating 1-4, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Keypad/Cardreader (Hardware + Logic, Rating*2, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Biometrics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Finally, you *can't* use bolt-cutters on a maglock.

[Doc Chase]

I agree that they would be preferable in that you have to be there to get around them, but all it takes is a bolt cutter. Plus they are so out of style, the retro look was so last year.

Monofilament is more man-portable.

[Stahlseele]

Anyway, yesferatu, it's not a stupid thought:

Don't forget that 'dumb' locks are indeed *less* secure than more advanced maglocks.

Breaking a Lock is (Locksmith + Agility, Rating, 1 Combat Turn)

Cracking a Maglock is:
Open the case (Hardware + Logic, Rating*2, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Anti-Tamper Hardware + Logic, Rating 1-4, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Keypad/Cardreader (Hardware + Logic, Rating*2, 1 Combat Turn),
plus Biometrics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Finally, you *can't* use bolt-cutters on a maglock.

Monofilament/Dikote'd Cyber-Spurs or a simple Vibro Knife or something like that.
Cut out the complete lock and call it a day. Or concentrated corrosive acids. Or Magic.
Or go for the other weak spot of a door. The Hinges.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes. But you can't use bolt-cutters on a maglock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Besides, cutting out a lock isn't easy, even with the right tools; a Vibro Knife wouldn't be easy, and do "Monofilament/Dikote'd Cyber-Spurs" exist? Security doors have Armor 8 (double that to resist damage) and Structure 9.

[Stahlseele]

Of course they do exist.
Or well, at least in SR3 they did.
Also, technically, you do not need to cout out the complete lock.
Only the bolt which keeps the door shut. And as the door needs to open, there's allready a kink in the armor, through which with application of considerable force(read: let the troll do it) the bolt can be reached.
Place tip of edged implement in the knack between door and wall, tell the troll to "kick on this end here with all your might" and you are done.

[Yerameyahu]

Perhaps, but there aren't rules for that. The rules are make melee attacks against Armor*2, and you *must* scored more boxes of damage than the Structure.

You're right that there are both RAW and roleplaying options, but this thread is Locks vs. Maglocks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not that mechanical combo locks exist, either; in SR4, it's key locks.

[X-Kalibur]

You can, however, spoof a maglock with a passkey. Time required? 1 card swipe.

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. And they're Forbidden and expensive, and don't work if there's also biometrics, and don't work if it's a keypad lock.

[X-Kalibur]

Yup. And they're Forbidden and expensive, and don't work if there's also biometrics, and don't work if it's a keypad lock.

I'll give you the biometrics part, but there are keypad sequencers as well.

[Doc Chase]

I'll give you the biometrics part, but there are keypad sequencers as well.

Biometrics can be spoofed by a Xerox copy of a fingerprint currently, or so Mythbusters says.

Barring that, if you can pull the print off of something you can make a mold to bypass a biometric lock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Keypad sequencers are also Forbidden. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, no one said that biometrics can't be beaten. They're certainly harder to beat than Key Locks, is the point. With all of these, you're rolling Rating vs. Rating; that's not a lot of room for error.

[DoomFrog]

A game I was a player in actually had a lot of trouble with an old-school combination safe. We broke into an office, found the safe, but the hacker messed up and didn't check for a data bomb when trying to get the combination of the owners computer.

In the end we just stole the whole safe because none of us had any chance of defaulting on the lock pick skill and opening it.

As a GM, I would definitely throw in old fashion mechanical combination locks. Seeing as lock picking is a hobby of mine, I would change the skill test a bit to make it more "realistic". Have them do a lockpicking + agility test with a rating, but they would have to pass a number of checks equal to the number of numbers in the combination. Give them a bonus die or two for a Perception (Listen) check.

[Yerameyahu]

Do the maglock crackers have to also take a number of checks equal to the digits in the passcode/passkey? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just kidding. That sounds like a good house rule if you want to make mechanical locks tougher, or at least slower.

[X-Kalibur]

I would certainly hope that any B&E specialist worth their salt has not only the hardware and computer skills to bypass a (mag)lock but also the lockpick skill, an autopicker, a maglock passkey, and a keypad sequencer of at least decent rating. Also, a high edge.

[Yerameyahu]

That is indeed a specialist! As the book says, you could even combine mechanical locks and maglocks, and of course sensors, guards, spirits, etc. etc. However, in the matchup of key locks versus maglocks, maglocks are both harder to crack and take more time. And personally, I'd expect a lot more people to have really high Agility (used on key locks) than Logic (maglocks).

Don't forget that the maglock sequencer (18F) requires you to open the case first, and are used *instead* of character skills + attribute. Key lock autopickers (8R) are used directly on the lock (no case) and *add* their rating to Skill + Attribute, a huge difference.

[CanRay]

Anti-Technology can often beat Technology, and sometimes ignorance is the best security.

After all, two people can only keep a secret if one of them is dead. Which is often why the 'Run isn't over until the Johnson screws the team.

[yesferatu]

"...they're Forbidden and expensive"
Well, then forget it! My runners don't do anything "illegal".
What do you mean lock cracking equipment is FORBIDDEN?

My initial plan was a 5-10 digit numerical code.
The runners would need 5-10 successes on an extended test.
I may or may not use the optional subtract a die each roll rule.

Am I just wrong in thinking that high tech locks are too easy to crack in this system?
You've got auto pickers, sequencers, passkeys can be spoofed, biometrics can be faked plus you can do most of those from a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER.

From a GM standpoint, I like the low tech angle since it forces *someone* with the right skills into the room and doesn't really offer a hacker cheat code.

Obviously, if you just mono-chainsaw the lock in half, it doesn't matter what kind is.

[yesferatu]

Double posty!

[Yerameyahu]

Forbidden is a pretty relevant piece of information, but I was more pointing out the 'expensive' aspect. In the case of the passkey, very expensive. Availability is another issue, as I mentioned later.

Everything we've mentioned requires someone in the room, maglock or not. A hacker could do things with the electronic security, but we hadn't mentioned it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I thought I'd illustrated why 'not unbreakable' for passcodes/passkeys/biometrics doesn't mean 'easy to break'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It doesn't. But, while a key lock maxes out at 12 hits required (6 without Transponder-Coded keys), a maglock maxes out at like 28 before adding any biometrics (and you can just pile these on).

And let's talk about those biometrics: fingerprints require a glove molder and a copy of the legit print; retina requires retina duplication; voice requires a recording or voice modulator, real sample either way; breath/cell/DNA requires the actual DNA; facial recognition requires a good Disguise. Again, this is after up to 28 Threshold of plain Hardware + Logic, while the key lock is beaten with (Locksmith + Agility + Autopicker). Transponder keys do help out a *lot* though: the interval on that Hardware +Logic test is 1 minute, instead of 1 Combat Turn.

You're right that key locks are pretty easy to break, but at least there are no bump-keys in SR4, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DoomFrog]

yesferatu-

Yes locks are easy to get past, but that is actually the truth in real life. Locks and encryption are never 100%, most times they are just a deterant. The most secure encryptions and locks can be bypassed, it just takes time.

Also if you are trying to make your locks secure in your game remember: A lock is only as strong as the door it is in. And a door is only as strong as the wall it is in.

A Rating 12 maglok on a wood door isn't going to stop a troll. And a steel reinforced security door mounted in drywall won't stop a troll either.

[CanRay]

Security is to make things difficult and, hopefully, get people caught while doing things they're not supposed to. And to keep citizens honest.

Professionals will always find a way in. That is what they do.