Low tech locks? Options

[jaellot]

A game I was a player in actually had a lot of trouble with an old-school combination safe. We broke into an office, found the safe, but the hacker messed up and didn't check for a data bomb when trying to get the combination of the owners computer.

In the end we just stole the whole safe because none of us had any chance of defaulting on the lock pick skill and opening it.

Heh, did the same thing. My troll just punched through the surrounding drywall of the wall safe, and tossed it out the window. Through the roof of a delivery van we had jacked for the job.

[Stahlseele]

Perfect B/E-Equipment?
A Monofilament-Chainsaw with the Silence Spell anchored to it!

[jakephillips]

Yep our B and E guy has an auto picker in addition to a passkey and and sequencer.

[CanRay]

"OK, hack the safe." "I can't, it's from the '20s." "Ew." "Worse than you think. The 1920s!"

[TeknoDragon]

For further safe fun, make the stairs up (or down) to the floor it is on too weak to handle the weight of said safe; if the thing is half a ton or so, the stairs will handle the armored, cybered troll using them, but there will be an amusing surprise when the team attempts to remove the heavy, reinforced MacGuffin Holder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[suoq]

My initial plan was a 5-10 digit numerical code.
The runners would need 5-10 successes on an extended test.
I may or may not use the optional subtract a die each roll rule.

You've lost me. Is there some reason why combination locks have somehow gotten more difficult than high-tech locks to open?

1) If they're sold, locksmiths need to be able to open them. People expect locksmiths to be able to open locks. And quickly. People get mad if locksmiths can't open their lock. Unless the locksmiths have a skillset criminals don't, I don't why the criminals are at a sudden disadvantage.

2) Low-tech is (or at least used to be) the starting ground for high-tech. Maybe they don't teach basics anymore and they go straight to the advanced stuff, but that seems like asking a lot of people to re-invent the wheel when they were never taught about the wheel.

3) Security through obscurity doesn't really work. Look, an old lock! Google how to open it. Find an exploding diagram or blueprint. Ok. Just do it the old fashioned way (pull hard and slowly spin the dial and feel for when it "gives").

If you want to make life harder for your players, just make a harder lock with more security features.

In the current world, security has three sorts of ways it can be opened. A simple lock uses one way. A harder lock uses two ways. The best security uses three. These ways are defined by the thing needed to pass the lock.
1) Something you are (biometrics)
2) Something you have (key)
3) Something you know (password)

I would expect, eventually, that someone will add a 4th in the world of shadowrun.
4) Something you can cast (spell)

I kind of like the 4, because they can be remembered as Have, Are, Cast, Know. (H.A.C.K.)

But going low-tech, claiming the player somehow doesn't know the basics of his craft, and using that sudden lack of knowledge to keep him from having a chance to shine at his moment doesn't seem like an enjoyable time at the table. If you're going to make it hard for him, don't make it hard by making him look incompetent.

[Yerameyahu]

There are alchemical widgets, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mayhem_2006]

But going low-tech, claiming the player somehow doesn't know the basics of his craft, and using that sudden lack of knowledge to keep him from having a chance to shine at his moment doesn't seem like an enjoyable time at the table. If you're going to make it hard for him, don't make it hard by making him look incompetent.

I agree that a mechanical lock should not somehow be harder to pick than an electronic lock.

However, whilst the mechanical lock should be simpler, if the groups B+E specialist has neglected to take any skill or equipment for dealing with it it's his own fault that he looks incompetent, not the GMs.

[kzt]

Security is to make things difficult and, hopefully, get people caught while doing things they're not supposed to.

Physical security is all about time. Given unlimited time you can get anything. What physical security does is

a) Start a timer - That's what the roving guards, alarms, etc do.

b) Make it take a lot longer to get the stuff. That's why the valuable stuff is in a 2500 kg TRTL-60X6 safe, and why the safe is bolted to the floor.

c) Arrange that if you spend too much time on part b you get to meet a large number of heavily armed people who have plans for how you should spend the next few years.


And to get back the the original poster, the USG has required classified data to be stored in a container protected by a combination lock for 50+ years, the current lock is pretty darn hard to open without the combination unless you are willing to go to an overt attack using power tools. Most high security safes have relockers that trip when you attempt to bypass the lock.

[kzt]

You've lost me. Is there some reason why combination locks have somehow gotten more difficult than high-tech locks to open?

1) If they're sold, locksmiths need to be able to open them. People expect locksmiths to be able to open locks. And quickly. People get mad if locksmiths can't open their lock. Unless the locksmiths have a skillset criminals don't, I don't why the criminals are at a sudden disadvantage.

People who lose keys to high security locks get to buy another lock after the locksmith drills it out. Some people can pick some high security locks with enough time, but it's hardly a common skill with locksmiths. And some locks simply haven't ever been picked. Like the EVVA MCS.

It's a lot harder to open a high security safe. The way a safe tech opens a high security safe that the owner has lost the combination to is with a magnetic drill rig, a box of bits, a hammer, a center punch, quite a bit of noise and a lot of time.

[CanRay]

2) Low-tech is (or at least used to be) the starting ground for high-tech. Maybe they don't teach basics anymore and they go straight to the advanced stuff, but that seems like asking a lot of people to re-invent the wheel when they were never taught about the wheel.

I'm a computer tech.

The only thing I know about Analog Computers is from a History Class. Doesn't mean I can fix it's bugs. Which might include MOTHS, which is where the term "Bug" comes from.

[suoq]

People who lose keys to high security locks get to buy another lock after the locksmith drills it out. Some people can pick some high security locks with enough time, but it's hardly a common skill with locksmiths. And some locks simply haven't ever been picked. Like the EVVA MCS.

It's a lot harder to open a high security safe. The way a safe tech opens a high security safe that the owner has lost the combination to is with a magnetic drill rig, a box of bits, a hammer, a center punch, quite a bit of noise and a lot of time.

And neither of those is a low tech combination lock. They're current state-of-the art, exactly the opposite of what's being proposed in this thread.

[suoq]

I'm a computer tech.

The only thing I know about Analog Computers is from a History Class. Doesn't mean I can fix it's bugs. Which might include MOTHS, which is where the term "Bug" comes from.

I realize that you may not know about Analog Computers. However, in that case, you are the person who knows you don't know. I'm not telling you that you don't know it.

I'm all for a player deciding his character doesn't know how to pick an old-style combination lock.

I'm not in favor of the GM telling a player that his character doesn't know how to pick an old lock when the character has the lock picking skill and there is no separate skill for old locks and no listed gear they neglected to buy.

I'm also not in favor of an old low-tech combination being harder to open then a new high-tech secure lock for a player's character.

It's the difference between storytelling and interactive storytelling. The GM isn't just telling the world's story, he's now telling the player's story too. In order for the world's story to work, he's been forced to gimp the player character.

[CanRay]

Ah, I get where you're going now.

I was saying that someone that knows only how to hack a Electronic Lock doesn't know how to deal with an Old Fashioned Lock. Which is true, I mean, where do you connect the electronic leads?

[Yerameyahu]

suoq, I thought the point is that he wouldn't *have* Lockpicking. It's only for old locks; maglocks don't use it at all.

[Drraagh]

Old locks have a few good things, especially if you consider really high-tech locking mechanisms. Also, add a few extra add-ons, things like glass plates that prevent drilling, motion sensors to prevent tampering or picking up the safe, a couple hidden cameras being monitored for the site, etc.

But as was said, locks help make the challenge take a lot longer, and also can keep out people who may not have the proper skills. I don't play SR4, so I don't know the skillsets and details there, but SR3 worked around that by creating Lockpicking for old-style and Electronics + Electronics B/R to break newer locks.

Also, as a final thought, there is the idea of putting multiple ideas together. What about a key lock that opens a code lock that activates a biometric lock or something similar? Sort of like the idea of missile launching systems, where its a pair of keys and then flip the switch and then press the button.

If you watch the two episodes of Tiger Team they made, they show how even 'high tech' locks can be beaten by simple means. Things like picking an RFID card or trying a few combinations, since a lot of people set combos to easy things to remember.

Locksmiths, as people have said, normally will either destroy the lock and then add a new one, or they will take their time and open it up. But what about a 'system override' code or device. The only problem with that is what if it is taken/stolen/etc, it's like a skeleton key. Could make an interesting idea for a run, especially if you have NPCs reacting smartly and trying to stop you from using it or catch you.

[Stahlseele]

Combiner-Tech.
Old Skool Lock and Key. But the Key is actually a biometric reader that transfers certain data while being turned.
Same with the keypad. The code is important, but also the pad reads the finger prints and you need to use specific fingers to input specific numbers.

[suoq]

suoq, I thought the point is that he wouldn't *have* Lockpicking. It's only for old locks; maglocks don't use it at all.

You got something different from what he said than I did. My impression was that the character was no longer doing a simple lockpicking test but some new form of extended test to figure out how each tumbler on the lock works. (Figure out how tumbler #1 works and then drop a die for the next tumbler.)

[Yerameyahu]

I did see that bit, but either the guy has Lockpicking or he doesn't. He's not being penalized for not knowing 'the basics of his craft', because he either knows alls about Lockpicking, or he knows all about cracking Maglocks. (Or he has both unrelated skills, of course.)

[Mayhem_2006]

suoq, I thought the point is that he wouldn't *have* Lockpicking. It's only for old locks; maglocks don't use it at all.

I also got the impression that the poster was saying "Lots of runners have electronics and hacking skills, but maybe not all of them have lockpicking skill - and if they don't, you can put them off their stride with a mechanical lock."

[sabs]

Unless for 600 nuyen they bought a R6 autopicker (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, Mayhem, and that's *not* 'the basics of their profession'. At all.

[suoq]

I did see that bit, but either the guy has Lockpicking or he doesn't. He's not being penalized for not knowing 'the basics of his craft', because he either knows alls about Lockpicking, or he knows all about cracking Maglocks. (Or he has both unrelated skills, of course.)

Ok. I must have missed something. Help me understand.

1) The guy has lockpicking.
2) Because this is a combination lock instead of a keylock, the player isn't rolling Locksmith + Agility, Rating, 1 Combat Turn.
3) Instead he has to do "5-10 successes on an extended test" (1 for every digit) possibly with the loss of a die on each pass.

I'm having a hard time understanding the logic / game balance / enjoyment behind this. I'm probably missing something.

I don't mind the loss of autopickers, lockpicks as tools. I'm used to there being times certain tools don't help. Likewise I'd be open to bonuses from enhanced hearing or (especially) touch as a replacement for the lost tools. That's a die or two either way. From a GM standpoint it's fluff (take away the tools and make it a weaker lock and it's a wash in the end. Take away the tools OR make it a stronger lock. Still a wash. It's easy to change the flavor while keeping the odds of success story-appropriate,)

It's the order of magnitude difference in difficulty between the two types of lock that bothers me. A character suddenly goes from "B&E specialist" to "No can do." and it's not the players fault. He tool the skill and the tools, but the rules changed.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes: his house rule is to make locks harder. I was only responding to your point that this was unfair because 'it's taking away knowledge from the players' or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I may have been distracted when you and CanRay used the terms 'old' and 'new' to refer to what Shadowrun only calls 'old' locks: mechanical ones. 'High tech' locks are maglocks; even key locks with transponder keys are still 'old'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's true that the only locks in SR4 are key locks. No combo, no mechanical wall safes, etc. However, I don't agree that picking a key lock, cracking a combo lock, and cutting a safe are necessarily the same skill anyway. Because the latter two don't exist in SR4, there's no skill for them (the third one is probably Demo, practically). You could add those, of course.

[suoq]

Note on Locksmith:

Locksmith (Agility )
Locksmith is the art of manipulating, opening, and repairing mechanical
locks. See Using Locksmith, p. 135.
Default: Yes
Skill Group: None
Specializations: By lock type (Combination, Cylinder, Pin Tumbler,Safe, etc.)

Edit: Also

Key locks are the simplest kind, involving the use of tumblers and metal keys or combination code dials to open doors instead of cards or some other device.