Casting through optic instruments? Options

[jeeger]

Yesterday, I found a line in the SR4 sourcebook that says "Casting through optical instruments gives a -3 to the dice pool" (In the "Street Gear" chapter, "Optical Instruments"). How can a mage work around that penalty? Would wearing a monocle instead of glasses be enough? I have glasses with smartlink and perception enhancement(?), so I'd really hate not getting to wear any optical instruments.

My GM would probably just houserule it, but I'd like a more "rule-conformant" solution...

Oh, and Greetings from a newbie Dumpshocker (and Shadowrunnner)

[Smokeskin]

That penalty is for looking through binoculars or something like that.

Glasses are electronic. There's no reason the smartlink reticule overlay should give a penalty. If the perception enhancement is running, you're looking at a screen inside the glasses, and you can't cast at all.

[Manunancy]

Something you can do is that once you've spotted the target you dump the enhancment and revert back to unaugmented 'see-through' mode. Keeping an eye on somehting you've noticed is easier than spotting it in the first place and you should be able to do it long enouh for casting even without the aid.

Depending on what you're running on your glasses, you may get a penalty to spotting and casting with AR crap cluttering your vision.

[Dahrken]

Alternatively, once the target(s) located you drop an Indirect area combat spell to blanket their general location with magical destruction. A wall is easier to target.

[Karoline]

Glasses are electronic. There's no reason the smartlink reticule overlay should give a penalty.

Sure it should. A mage can't cast at an electronic image at all, and if there is an electronic image over their target, they're going to risk the electronic image blocking their LoS, it basically generates cover for whatever they are casting at, because I'm sure smartlink outlines the target, inserts a couple arrows indicating good spots to aim, maybe a big set of crosshairs, and all kinds of other things, presuming that it doesn't overlay the actual image entirely with a digital recreation to make all that easier.

[Yerameyahu]

That sounds pretty munchkin-y, Manunancy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I agree with Smokeskin: that rule refers explicitly to Periscope, Endoscope, and Mage Sight Goggles.

Contacts/Glasses/Goggles don't impose a visual LOS penalty unless you're *using* non-natural optical sensor (Thermo/LL/Enhancement/Flare Comp/etc.), in which case you can't cast at all.

The smartlink is irrelevant, because it's only for guns; you're not using it with magic at all. I agree that it could contribute to AR-clutter, just like all AR; that's a GM call. Not one to be made lightly, either:

By default, ARO data appear as ghostly images and text in your field of view, so it does not fully obstruct your vision. You can customize your interface to view this data any way you like, or to filter out certain content (like visual spam AROs). If you accept an incoming video call, for example, the caller’s image or icon appears in your field of vision, but transparent so the real world can be seen through it. If someone starts shooting at you, you can put the caller on hold and close the AR window or shift it to your peripheral vision so it doesn’t interfere.

AR can also be a drawback. If, for example, you are simultaneously performing a data search and holding a conference call in your head, you are less likely to notice a ghoul sneaking up behind you. Spam and corp adverts specialize at bypassing your AR filters, so you may find yourself bombarded by intrusive infomercials at inopportune moments. Likewise, if someone hacks your commlink, you may be fed false data or blitzed with a sudden full-volume sensory blast. The gamemaster applies appropriate modifiers (usually –1 but possibly –3 dice) in such situations.

[Karoline]

That sounds pretty munchkin-y, Manunancy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I agree with Smokeskin: that rule refers explicitly to Periscope, Endoscope, and Mage Sight Goggles. Contacts/Glasses/Goggles don't impose a visual LOS penalty unless you're *using* non-natural optical sensor (Thermo/LL/Enhancement/Flare Comp/etc.), in which case you can't cast at all.

This too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TommyTwoToes]

Maybe I missed the obvious corrollary, but does this mean that a mage with cyber-eyes can't cast?

[Doc Chase]

Maybe I missed the obvious corrollary, but does this mean that a mage with cyber-eyes can't cast?

I guess that depends. Can your eyes see auras? Could you see in the astral?

[Yerameyahu]

Essence-paid counts as natural. For cyber-eyes, etc. Radar, ultrasound, not so much; you'll find people to argue, but…

[TommyTwoToes]

I guess that depends. Can your eyes see auras? Could you see in the astral?

I was thinking more on the physical plane, I get that it shouldn't affect any casting done astrally. But the cyber-eyes generate a digital image so you would kinda get screwed

[Yerameyahu]

And Astral Sight doesn't come from your eyes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Maybe not your eyes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Not anyone's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Daddy's Litt...]

Back in 3rd ed there was something I read that said a mage could cast through fibre optics and lens because he was looking at the actual object with his own eyes, but electronics like a screen could not be cast through. Maybe the bonus is because the light through these items in 4th ed is altered somewhat, like the way a fun house mirror distorts your vision, you are seeing the light reflected (refracted?)into your eye but the image/light have been bent a little.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I dunno. I assume it's because of reduced mobility, reduced field of view, etc. Still, the ability to cast without a real LOS *at all* is worth it.

[Doc Chase]

Back in 3rd ed there was something I read that said a mage could cast through fibre optics and lens because he was looking at the actual object with his own eyes, but electronics like a screen could not be cast through. Maybe the bonus is because the light through these items in 4th ed is altered somewhat, like the way a fun house mirror distorts your vision, you are seeing the light reflected (refracted?)into your eye but the image/light have been bent a little.

I believe it was because magic and electronics don't mix well, and seeing a reflection in a mirror somehow counted as 'line of sight'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Well, yes. That's still the rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You need a real, optical LOS.

[Doc Chase]

So does your face. ZING! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

TBH, the cybereyes thing has me boggled. An innocuous piece of hardware and one of the oft-acquired - would the Magic loss be just the tip of the iceberg?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Back in 3rd ed there was something I read that said a mage could cast through fibre optics and lens because he was looking at the actual object with his own eyes, but electronics like a screen could not be cast through. Maybe the bonus is because the light through these items in 4th ed is altered somewhat, like the way a fun house mirror distorts your vision, you are seeing the light reflected (refracted?)into your eye but the image/light have been bent a little.

And in 3e and earlier editions they were more express in what items were optical and what were electronic. Now it is down to the GMs common sense. And quite frankly I can see virtually any answer as possible. Optical thermographic/magnification glasses doubt it, but given this is how mages work it does not seem a stretch that over 60 years of research they figured out a method of doing it. Not having a table for this is generally not a good idea in a sci-fi setting, it is kind of hard to guess what could be invented in the next 60 years.

[KarmaInferno]

You're seeing in a direct line to the target: No penalty.

You're seeing via a reflection, optic fiber, or other optical but indirect method: -3 penalty.

You're seeing via an electronically processed image of the target: Cannot cast at the target at all.

AR overlays in your field of vision don't affect anything, but they generally can't help in casting either, unless they're paid for with essence like thermographics in a cybereye.



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* SR3 *did* make things more explicit, but it's really not that hard: no enhancements work for LOS, but contacts/etc. don't *block* normal vision; indirect optical devices (explicitly listed as Endoscope, etc.) give -3; cyber-/bio-eyes are fine.

Right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

It gets a little unfair of you're getting cast at via mage sight cable by a high initiate mage from inside a tank.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-karma

[Yerameyahu]

You had me at 'unfair' and 'mage'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

*shrug* SR3 *did* make things more explicit, but it's really not that hard: no enhancements work for LOS, but contacts/etc. don't *block* normal vision; indirect optical devices (explicitly listed as Endoscope, etc.) give -3; cyber-/bio-eyes are fine.

Right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Sure, but as far as I can tell the only optical device outside of the periscope etc section is binoculars. Apparently they forgot how to make optical glasses, or optical contacts, and the only vision enhancement possible as in it gives the option is magnification. So is the only optical thing in existence binoculars, or can you add mag to glasses like in 3e and earlier, can you add it to contacts, how about goggles? None of those are listed as having a optical option, but logically goggles at the least could. And once they leave out some logical options in the express list, you don't know where the others options are just left out.