Casting through optic instruments? Options

[Yerameyahu]

No, contacts and glasses, etc., don't affect natural LOS; nothing in that category does. You simply can't use any (electronic) enhancements for casting. You're right that the list is a little wonky, but not in a game-breaking way. Why do you even want magnification for magic? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're right that if you do want it, binoculars is a valid way you get it. (It's also available optically for contacts/etc., see below).

Edited for Stupid Wording. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Why couldn't you add Vision Mag to glasses, contacts, etc? Not that it would affect casting overmuch.




-karma

[Yerameyahu]

You can. It's explicitly available as optical.

It is available as both an optical (ideal for spellcasting at distant targets) or electronic (with real-time image correction) enhancement.

Oh, crap. I see what you're asking, my wording sucked in that last post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I was trying to say, 'what's wrong with binoculars?', not, 'binoculars are the only optical magnification'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Sorry.

I still dunno why you'd need it, though; does magic even have a range increment?

[KarmaInferno]

My current Missions character setup:

Contacts (Rtg 3)
└ Smartlink
└ Image Link
└ Flare Compensation

Goggles (Rtg 6)
└ Mage Sight Cable attachment
└ Low Light
└ Thermographic
└ Ultrasound
└ Vision Enhancement Rtg 3
└ Vision Magnification

All optical, but the only things affecting casting are the Vision Mag and Mage Sight Cable (hooks to the cable installed inside her vehicles, she also keeps a short piece for casting under doors and such)



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

Technically, only the Magnification *can* be optical, but none of the rest apply to casting anyway, so it doesn't matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Where are the rules for detachable Mage Sight Goggles, and for enhancing them with normal goggle mods? The book lists them with Capacity 1, and the detachable systems are for buildings.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Why couldn't you add Vision Mag to glasses, contacts, etc? Not that it would affect casting overmuch.




-karma

You can, but there is no such thing as optical glasses, goggles or contacts. They are all fully electronic, you should not be able to cast spells with them at all since the default visual method is electronic. That image you see of everything around you with your contacts its electronic. Magnification is in fact a optical or electronic enhancement, but since only binoculars are given the option of being optical none of the other items are technically available to use for any spellcasting purposes. Well I guess monocles work since you can see through the non-obstructed eye, and glasses, goggles you can go cyclops action and lift your ruby visor before blasting people.

I don't think any of this is intended, but by literal RAW binoculars are the only devices with an optical option, therefore the image generated through every other device is in fact electronic.

[Yerameyahu]

Again, that's not true. Contacts, glasses, etc. are optically transparent. All enhancements are non-obstructive overlays. You're seeing the object, not an electronic image. The description of binoculars as optical refers the the built-in Magnification mod. You're misreading.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Again, that's not true. Contacts, glasses, etc. are optically transparent. All enhancements are non-obstructive overlays. You're seeing the object, not an electronic image. The description of binoculars as optical refers the the built-in Magnification mod. You're misreading.

You got a rule for that somewhere. I think that is what is intended, but as far as I can tell that is not what is written.

"Contact lenses: The most recent generation display devices are worn directly on the eyes. They are nearly undetectable but offer little space for enhancements."

It is a generation display device, not a generation overlay device. Nothing here says electronic overlay on optical viewing. Everything seems to say pure electronic display.

[Yerameyahu]

It's a contact lens. The glasses are glasses. By definition, you can see through it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The description of AR says 'overlay'. If contacts blocked your natural vision, they'd block natural thermo, etc., and they'd use the Sensor rules, just like wearing a camera on your shoulder. If this were the case, the rules would say so. They don't say it, so they're not. I agree that there are problems in these rules here, but not *that* bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, "electronic imaging" only refers to stuff recorded by a camera, digitally processed, and then re-displayed on a screen.

Glasses, goggles, etc, you're seeing through directly. It's no different than looking through a window at something.

Where are the rules for detachable Mage Sight Goggles, and for enhancing them with normal goggle mods? The book lists them with Capacity 1, and the detachable systems are for buildings.

They're listed as OCCUPYING 1 Capacity. Note that they have brackets around the 1, indicating they can be installed into other sensor packages.



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

That doesn't make sense, but even if it did, how's that detachable? I agree it should be, it's just not in the rules.

How exactly would you install a periscope into contacts? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Or 'heavy goggles' for Mage Sight into glasses? Given that those items "can't take visual enhancements", their Capacity doesn't make sense, but neither does installing them into anything else.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's a contact lens. The glasses are glasses. By definition, you can see through it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The description of AR says 'overlay'. If contacts blocked your natural vision, they'd block natural thermo, etc., and they'd use the Sensor rules, just like wearing a camera on your shoulder. If this were the case, the rules would say so. They don't say it, so they're not. I agree that there are problems in these rules here, but not *that* bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Um well contacts are under the visual sensor and imaging devices section of equipment. These aren't contact lenses they are super sci-fi contacts with wi-fi and display the image you should be seeing normally onto the contact just like you were looking at a monitor. Like I said I do not believe this is intended, but as far as I can tell it is how it is written. People are inserting their real world expectations of what contacts/glasses are into this which is what I think is intended, but the wording on its own says otherwise.

[Yerameyahu]

I think the problem is that the wording *doesn't* say otherwise. It doesn't say either way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Now, you're assuming that a display is opaque, using your own real world expectations of what a display is. However, we have transparent displays right now in 2010. http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/24/samsung...amoled-display/

[KarmaInferno]

Um well contacts are under the visual sensor and imaging devices section of equipment. These aren't contact lenses they are super sci-fi contacts with wi-fi and display the image you should be seeing normally onto the contact just like you were looking at a monitor. Like I said I do not believe this is intended, but as far as I can tell it is how it is written. People are inserting their real world expectations of what contacts/glasses are into this which is what I think is intended, but the wording on its own says otherwise.

Er, your explanation is just as much extrapolating from the written text as ours is. Just because something is a display doesn't mean you can't also see through it.

What's an LCD display? Is it any less an LCD display if you remove the backlight and casing so you can see right through the LCD panel to whatever is on the other side?

My take on the issue: If you turn the power off on the device and can still can see through it, it's Optical and can be cast through.



-karma

[KarmaInferno]

That doesn't make sense, but even if it did, how's that detachable? I agree it should be, it's just not in the rules.

How exactly would you install a periscope into contacts? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Or 'heavy goggles' for Mage Sight into glasses? Given that those items "can't take visual enhancements", their Capacity doesn't make sense, but neither does installing them into anything else.

Yeah, well I didn't write it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm pretty sure the INTENDED meaning is that the "mage sight goggles" portion that is listed as occupying 1 capacity is just the end terminal for a mage sight cable system. You can buy Mage Sight Cable separately, it just sockets into the end terminal.

I do frankly find all the stuff you can cram into contact lenses to be a little ridiculous, which is why I made the decision to only put display-based stuff in them. Goggles, though, I could see being robust enough to have a set of prisms that allow a fiber optic transmitted image to be routed into.



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, the whole thing is a mess. But, only things under Visual Enhancements can go in those devices; Mage Sight doesn't qualify, and everything in the Optical Devices category is fluffed as a standalone device. Stupid rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I only asked because you said it was a Missions character.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Er, your explanation is just as much extrapolating from the written text as ours is. Just because something is a display doesn't mean you can't also see through it.

What's an LCD display? Is it any less an LCD display if you remove the backlight and casing so you can see right through the LCD panel to whatever is on the other side?

My take on the issue: If you turn the power off on the device and can still can see through it, it's Optical and can be cast through.



-karma

Sure maybe if you turn it off you can see through it. But if its on it is displaying in full detail everything you should be seeing, that level of "overlay" is such that I do not think you are also seeing through on an opaque screen. You are literally looking at a full detail electronic image of everything your eyes would be seeing if you had perfect vision and you were not wearing contacts. And I see nothing that says I can have the sensor on, but only the smart gun link or only the thermo. Apparently without adding thermo etc. contacts of the future are displaying a full image of everything onto a screen, not an overlay(maybe an opaque screen), hence why is it called a display and is a sensor.

I amnot even sure why I am arguing this, since I think it is clear this is not what is intended.

[KarmaInferno]

I agree, the whole thing is a mess. But, only things under Visual Enhancements can go in those devices; Mage Sight doesn't qualify, and everything in the Optical Devices category is fluffed as a standalone device. Stupid rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I only asked because you said it was a Missions character.

My particular character, it really doesn't matter to me if the GM decides it's a standalone device. (Even if the rules specifically allow them to be installed in other stuff.)

I just take an extra action to switch goggles if I run into that situation. No big deal.

Heck, I just realized. I can get ALL this stuff installed into a military armor helmet. Nobody ever actually sees my character anyhow for me to have to worry about the legality. Never leaves her rigger cocoon. No goggle switching needed. Yay!

Actually... there's no reason not to just wear milspec armor in there in general... hmm...


-karma

[Yerameyahu]

Shinobi, the rules I quoted earlier about AR make it clear that the overlays do not disrupt your view in that way. At worst, they can apply a 'distraction' penalty. The image (that is, your view of the world) is not electronic except for AR overlays: thermo, smartlink, videoconference, etc.

You're right the the book plays fast and loose with the word 'sensor', though. Some sensors are Vision, while some sensors are Sensors, and the rules about their different uses are messy at best. Still, the category, which includes cameras, is called Visual Sensors *and* Imaging Devices; I see no reason why Visual Sensors doesn't refer only to the cameras, and Imaging Device (admittedly, a bad name) why wouldn't refer to all the 'displays': contacts, etc. Bad word choice, yes, but interpretable as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) For the thermo/etc enhancements, we'll have to assume that these devices include a micro-camera or something *shrug*. More messy rules.

Hehe, yes, Karma. I don't view it as reasonable for any runner to ever have milspec armor, though.

[KarmaInferno]

Sure maybe if you turn it off you can see through it. But if its on it is displaying in full detail everything you should be seeing, that level of "overlay" is such that I do not think you are also seeing through on an opaque screen. You are literally looking at a full detail electronic image of everything your eyes would be seeing if you had perfect vision and you were not wearing contacts.

You see this? Right here? This is an extrapolation of the rules, and not what the rules actually say.

The rules at no point state that all images seen on the devices are digitally processed. They don't say the screen is opaque. For all we know, it's just a piece of glass with light outlines and text projected onto it, just like modern fighter pilots have today in their head up displays.

The rules could be written better, more clearly, yes. But, interpreting it one way it makes more logical sense, and interpreting it the other way does less.

And I see nothing that says I can have the sensor on, but only the smart gun link or only the thermo. Apparently without adding thermo etc. contacts of the future are displaying a full image of everything onto a screen, not an overlay(maybe an opaque screen), hence why is it called a display and is a sensor.

I amnot even sure why I am arguing this, since I think it is clear this is not what is intended.

At no point do the rules cover what exactly you see when you look through goggles, glasses, etc.

The display could be opaque. They might be see-through. The rules don't say.

But given that the game is set in a world where direct optical line of sight is important to some folks, which makes more sense?



-karma

[KarmaInferno]

Hehe, yes, Karma. I don't view it as reasonable for any runner to ever have milspec armor, though.

Heh, well the character in question is pretty much a Pink Mohawk poster girl.

With all the other stuff she has and does, what armor she's wearing is probably the least of her offenses.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Really, though, she could just sit naked in that cocoon. The cocoon already provides 20 points of armor.


-karma

[Yerameyahu]

I thought Missions was the 'follow the rules' setting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

It is.

The rules just allow a seriously silly amount of Pink Mohawk if you are so inclined.

I mean, her primary drone looks like Tom Cruise.



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

What drone is it? Surely the Otomo is unobtainable.

[KarmaInferno]

It's one of the gimpy servant drones, modified.

It's slow as hell, which is why there's also a personal mobility vehicle involved.

Yes. Robot Tom Cruise, driving a Segway. As the team Face.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

She does want an Otomo one day, though. There's posters and sales brochures for them pasted all over the inside of her van.

Anyhow, I'll probably post her build over on the Missions forum eventually. This is way off topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-karma