Question on Cloning & Awakened Critters Options

[darthmord]

Does cloning work on Dragons / Great Dragons? What about other awakened animals?

[Method]

I'm going to guess no. I'd have to dig into my collection for a canon answer, but so far the precedent has been that geneticists have been unable to characterize or clone magically active genes.

[Badmoodguy88]

I totally misread this. I thought this was a thread about clothing for critters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Cerberus Hound is only male as far as anyone can tell. No female has ever been found, nor any pups. So it may be a normal dog that becomes magically awakened like some form of surge or goblinization. The one anomaly is that Cerberus Hounds only come from Grease so there should be a genetic factor. So I would say Cerberus Hound is one example of a creature that can't be cloned.

On the other hand can't any critter, awakened or not be genetically modified? Would that not mean in most cases from birth?

On the other hand the cost for such mutants is with the assumption that a modified version of that critter already exists and the cost to start a new project is in the millions or billions. Someone is probably trying to clone a dragon and not having much luck with it.

[Dahrken]

Theorically cloning is possible even for Awakened critters.

But practically and according to fluff the attempts made so far resulted only in the normal, non-awakened parent animal (for exemple trying to clone a Cerberus will give you a dog), the same way that a clone of a mage or adept (and probably of a technomancer) is not magically (matricially) active.

Attempting to clone a dragon also introduce several extra problems.

First, draconic physiology, reproductive cycle and foetal development/biochemistry are more speculation than scientifically established facts, and the dragons themselves probably do their best to make sure things stay that way.

Second, you need to acquire genetic samples from a dragon. Since such materials would also be able to be used for ritual targeting of the donor, most live dragons would be unlikely to part with them. Acquiring them from a dead specimen is complicated too. Killing the critter is not really easy, and dragon hunting is likely to be frowned upon by other dragons, who have the ressources to make their displeasure felt.

[Neraph]

Grease

Greece.

Also, in the Shadowtalk section on page 78 of Augmentation, KAM (a doctor, IIRC) says that there is no known case of a clone Awakening. In that same area is a quote about how clones of metatypes don't always express that metatype also.

This does not mean that someone with the Escaped Clone quality cannot be a Magician/Mystic Adept/Adept, however.

[Sengir]

But practically and according to fluff the attempts made so far resulted only in the normal, non-awakened parent animal (for exemple trying to clone a Cerberus will give you a dog), the same way that a clone of a mage or adept (and probably of a technomancer) is not magically (matricially) active.

The way I understand it is that clones do not HAVE to be mundane, they simply have the same chance of awakening as any other newborn.

As far a dragons are concerned...dragons seem to be equal parts biology and magic, probably their reproduction is a similarly complicated affair.

[Dahrken]

The way I understand it is that clones do not HAVE to be mundane, they simply have the same chance of awakening as any other newborn.

They probably have a lower chance, because all the high-tech crap that has to be done on the donor's cell - possibly including some DNA-tweaking to offset things like shortened telomeres - is far from magic-friendly. Vat-growing the clone add another layer of technology, and accelerated growth for faster usability is likely to put an extra nail in the coffin of any magical ability the clone could potentially develop.

[Method]

Right, so the only outcome for a clone of a magic-dependent species that doesn't Awaken is to turn back into goo. Clone fail.

Also brings to mind a certain item in Dunkelzahn's will- namely a years worth of toe nail clippings... there's a plot seed for you.

[Yerameyahu]

It sounds more like no clones are Awakened/Paranormal, at all.

[Dahrken]

If I'm not mistaken talons, like nails or hairs do not have the nuclear DNA of the sample's donor, so they cannot be used for cloning. As ritual samples or in some cases telesma for enchanting yes, but cloning ?

[Method]

Its not the greatest source for genomic DNA, but it can be done. LINK

I'd imagine that with a year's worth of material you could sequence Dunkelzahn's entire genome (assuming dragons don't have like 200 chromosomes or something, which I guess they could).

[KarmaInferno]

(assuming dragons don't have like 200 chromosomes or something, which I guess they could).

I am reminded of the first 30 seconds of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlqoLi_3_Fk&fmt=6




-karma

[nemafow]

Haha yeah, so was I.

[Neraph]

I'd imagine that with a year's worth of material you could sequence Dunkelzahn's entire genome (assuming dragons don't have like 200 chromosomes or something, which I guess they could).

Ferns have 400. So the question is really: where are all the super-ferns out there that can wrest great dragons to the ground? Imaging all the genes that could Awaken...

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. Or maybe number of genes isn't related to power? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

Yeah chromosomes don't usually equate to how well evolved something is. I think in the clip from Fifth Element was suggesting she had genetic memory. She did wake up able to speak and with memories of the crash she was in that killed her. I usually think genetic memory is a stupid plot device but she did have over 200 thousand chromosomes to store her memory with.

[darthmord]

Yeah chromosomes don't usually equate to how well evolved something is. I think in the clip from Fifth Element was suggesting she had genetic memory. She did wake up able to speak and with memories of the crash she was in that killed her. I usually think genetic memory is a stupid plot device but she did have over 200 thousand chromosomes to store her memory with.

It was used to great effect in the Dune Saga. Granted, one had to awaken the memory to be able to use it and doing so carried significant risk of Abomination (possession of your body by one or more of all your ancestor memories).

[Manunancy]

One point to keep in mind is also how big are the chromosome ? As far as I know there's no standard size (in 'number of DNA pairs in the chromosome) amongst different organisms. Which means that a few big chromosomes may hold more genetic information than a bunch of small ones. Genome project quantiify by number of Dna pairs rather than number of chromosomes precisely for that reason.

[Laodicea]

I seem to recall a bit of fluff that says even cloned metahumans dont awaken, even if they're cloned from a mage.

[Method]

As far as I know there's no standard size (in 'number of DNA pairs in the chromosome) amongst different organisms. Which means that a few big chromosomes may hold more genetic information than a bunch of small ones.

You are correct.

[Neraph]

I seem to recall a bit of fluff that says even cloned metahumans dont awaken, even if they're cloned from a mage.

Also, in the Shadowtalk section on page 78 of Augmentation, KAM (a doctor, IIRC) says that there is no known case of a clone Awakening. In that same area is a quote about how clones of metatypes don't always express that metatype also.

I'm beginning to believe people don't read my posts.

Also, my bit about chromosome pairs was meant as satire.