[X] My Assistant

[Karoline]

I think the Type O System's pseudoscience and the HMVV pseudoscience don't quite mesh, honestly; the transformation of the body's system in the infection process would eliminate the Type O cells.

IE all your cells? You mean that the DNA would change enough that you are no longer a type O system.

Of course, with GM approval you could be the one vampire who *doesn't* lose the Owen-type non-allergenic cells, making you even rarer... and thus the target of organleggers and paracritter bio-researchers just as soon as the word gets out.

It's hard to imagine that word of that would ever get out. I mean even a normal person with a type O system doesn't go around bragging about it for the same reason.

Oh, and for those people talking about the vamp regenning bioware, I don't see any reason that the vamp should regenerate bioware. It isn't a natural part of their body, it isn't in their DNA, and so wouldn't be coded into what is supposed to be regenerated.

[Mongoose]

Type-O system is a weird quality. You can't take it and also be a mage or mystic adept. Sure, that would probably be overpowered, but statistically speaking, SOMEONE with magic will have O-type blood.

Its not type O blood. Something like 30% of the population has type O blood. Organ transplant histological compatablity os MUCH more complex than just blood type. In SR, they just use "type O" as slang fro "universal donor", but its a LOT rarer than the blood type. Probably rarer than being a mage by an order or two of magnitude. And given how the "magus gene" works, its entirely possible the two are simply not genetically compatible.

Speaking of regenration and Tamanous... you gotta feal sorry for a shifter or vampire who gets captured by hungry ghouls with a grudge.

[Karoline]

Its not type O blood. Something like 30% of the population has type O blood. Organ transplant histological compatablity os MUCH more complex than just blood type. In SR, they just use "type O" as slang fro "universal donor", but its a LOT rarer than the blood type. Probably rarer than being a mage by an order or two of magnitude. And given how the "magus gene" works, its entirely possible the two are simply not genetically compatible.

Speaking of regenration and Tamanous... you gotta feal sorry for a shifter or vampire who gets captured by hungry ghouls with a grudge.

Type O refers to the first person ever discovered to be a 'universal donor' for organs, Owen. The similarity in name with type O blood is just a (fabricated by the devs) coincidence.

It is however possible to get a type O system and latent awakening, which has a 2 in 3 chance of being mystic adept or mage, so the rules don't make it an impossibility to be a mage with a type O system.

[Jaid]

It's hard to imagine that word of that would ever get out. I mean even a normal person with a type O system doesn't go around bragging about it for the same reason.

Oh, and for those people talking about the vamp regenning bioware, I don't see any reason that the vamp should regenerate bioware. It isn't a natural part of their body, it isn't in their DNA, and so wouldn't be coded into what is supposed to be regenerated.

actually, it's really easy for it to get out. first, you decide you're going to go to a street doctor to implant your bioware. part of this should include at least basic screening to perform the surgery. furthermore, while operating on you it is going to be extremely obvious that you have regeneration. if any sort of test is done, they'll probably figure out you're a vampire.

so, before long, the street doc knows you're a vampire with type O. while he has you under for the surgery, he has a choice to make. sell your sorry butt for as much as he can, or finish the operation and have an expectation that you will kill him in order to keep your million-nuyen secret a secret. which do you think the average street doc is going to choose?

[Badmoodguy88]

His organs would not be worth much. He could only have them transplanted into a vampire or someone who wants to be a vampire. He might be useful for research but it is not that hard to take a vampire from someone with type O system. It may be rare but I do not think it is that rare.

An infected type O might be useful for researching bioware for the infected. In the same way I think any type O of a rare meta type.

[Karoline]

actually, it's really easy for it to get out. first, you decide you're going to go to a street doctor to implant your bioware. part of this should include at least basic screening to perform the surgery. furthermore, while operating on you it is going to be extremely obvious that you have regeneration. if any sort of test is done, they'll probably figure out you're a vampire.

so, before long, the street doc knows you're a vampire with type O. while he has you under for the surgery, he has a choice to make. sell your sorry butt for as much as he can, or finish the operation and have an expectation that you will kill him in order to keep your million-nuyen secret a secret. which do you think the average street doc is going to choose?

The fact that you're a vampire will be beyond obvious, because you heal at a rate that makes surgery impossible without the right tools, so you're already dealing with a doctor that doesn't mind working on vampires, and so likely is good at keeping their lips shut. That, or, you know, the vampire knows someone with a gun. A big stretch I know, but it is possible.

I doubt a street doc goes through all the 'basic screening' stuff either, they want to do the operation as quickly and cheaply as possible. If the vampire doesn't want to pay for X, then the doctor isn't likely to do X, in this case extra screening to check for compatibility since it isn't an issue 99.99+% of the time, and in this case the vampire knows in advance that it'll be perfect. So yeah, unless you're a true idiot about it, it is fairly easy to keep under wraps.

An infected type O might be useful for researching bioware for the infected

Depends on the type of infected. A ghoul would spread the infection with transplants, but a vampire would not. Of course weather or not the vampire's organs are still usable in a human body is questionable, which means a vampire being able to be type O is fairly questionable. After all, it refers to having a particular type of organs.

[Badmoodguy88]

No I mean researching bioware to implant into the infected. They are paying customers too. More closely tailored bioware would mean less essence and less malfunctions.

[Jaid]

The fact that you're a vampire will be beyond obvious, because you heal at a rate that makes surgery impossible without the right tools, so you're already dealing with a doctor that doesn't mind working on vampires, and so likely is good at keeping their lips shut. That, or, you know, the vampire knows someone with a gun. A big stretch I know, but it is possible.

I doubt a street doc goes through all the 'basic screening' stuff either, they want to do the operation as quickly and cheaply as possible. If the vampire doesn't want to pay for X, then the doctor isn't likely to do X, in this case extra screening to check for compatibility since it isn't an issue 99.99+% of the time, and in this case the vampire knows in advance that it'll be perfect. So yeah, unless you're a true idiot about it, it is fairly easy to keep under wraps.

there is a big difference between "worth a few thousand nuyen to turn in to the cops, if that" and "worth potentially millions of nuyen if you sell to a corporation"

and the doctor is going to presumably know that regular bioware doesn't work for the vampire, so the type O part is definitely going to become obvious as well.

so the doctor, who apparently has no problems working with vampires, knows that:

1) you are potentially the basis for vampire bioware to be made widely available.

2) you regenerate any organs that may be ripped out of you anyways.

now, unless the doctor is really stupid (which, if you're paying him to operate on you he hopefully isn't since that affects his dice pool), he knows that you're an extreme rarity, and that the law pretty much won't protect you as a vampire anyways. you may have big friends, but once he has a type O vampire for sale and a contact who has an interest in buying a type O vampire, odds are good the doctor is going to quite suddenly have much much much bigger friends. most likely tamanous, since it's a street doc who likely doesn't have the phone number for the director of research in aztechnology.

so the street doc probably isn't worried about your friend with a big gun, because the people he's selling you out to have much bigger guns, and a lot more of them. and once he's sold you, he can probably afford to hire on people with much bigger guns to your friend (assuming he doesn't just include as part of the deal that he will be placed somewhere that you'll have a very very hard time tracking him down)

[Alpha Blue]

Wasn't the delta wear for vamps, shifters and whatnot meant to signify the level of customization needed for an implant to work with these guys? The type O system thingy is about your system being extra good at excepting implants right? So to me it seems they are using the same word describing different things.

[Wombat]

Type - O System means that you have the type of system, including blood type among other factors, that is cultured by biomedical corporate divisions to mass produce viable hypoallergenic organs and are used as a base for creating various biowares. In effect, the biowares produced are already tailored to your body, thus they count as delta-grade implants. Once infected with HMHVV-1, the retrovirus rewrites your genetic code, this would mean that your system has changed from that which is used to produce standard bioware implants. As a GM, I would say that this means that a Vampire cannot have Type-O System.

[Karoline]

so the street doc probably isn't worried about your friend with a big gun, because the people he's selling you out to have much bigger guns, and a lot more of them. and once he's sold you, he can probably afford to hire on people with much bigger guns to your friend (assuming he doesn't just include as part of the deal that he will be placed somewhere that you'll have a very very hard time tracking him down)

You misunderstand me. I don't mean 'friends with guns who will come looking when you don't show up to the next meet' I mean 'friends with guns who are hanging out in the operating room'

[Starmage21]

Type - O System means that you have the type of system, including blood type among other factors, that is cultured by biomedical corporate divisions to mass produce viable hypoallergenic organs and are used as a base for creating various biowares. In effect, the biowares produced are already tailored to your body, thus they count as delta-grade implants. Once infected with HMHVV-1, the retrovirus rewrites your genetic code, this would mean that your system has changed from that which is used to produce standard bioware implants. As a GM, I would say that this means that a Vampire cannot have Type-O System.

I believe the argument is that the hmhvv could also bring you in line with type o in the same way it could change/invalidate existing type o.

Its magic and science interaction were talking about here. The only question you should have is "is it broken?" And if the answer is no then you build whatever technobabble you need to make it work.

You people make this shit harder than it needs to be I swear

[Yerameyahu]

It seems unlikely that Type O would happen to be the same as Infected genes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The simplest interpretation is that Type O lets non-delta bioware count as delta for the purpose of Essence cost *only*; it doesn't work for shapeshifters, sapient critters, infected, etc. As was said in the very first reply. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This is not 'RAI interpretation'. The rules say:

Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body (i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same).

The use of 'i.e.' means that essence cost reduction is the only effect; if it meant 'all purposes', then it would say 'e.g.', because essence cost reduction would be only one example of multiple effects.

[Laodicea]

I believe the argument is that the hmhvv could also bring you in line with type o in the same way it could change/invalidate existing type o.

Its magic and science interaction were talking about here. The only question you should have is "is it broken?" And if the answer is no then you build whatever technobabble you need to make it work.

You people make this shit harder than it needs to be I swear

I enjoyed this post.

[Dahrken]

Even if allowed to be a type-O vampire, you should still pay more than base price.

Why ? While off-the-rack bioware itself may cost you the same price as for everybody else, the implantation procedure is highly customized, one-of-a-kind and likely to need the use of specific tools and products, not to mention a pretty specialized knowledge I don't expect your average street doc to possess - think at least beta or possibly delta clinic.

Regeneration is the first hurdle to overcome, things like incisions, the removal of an organ to replace it with the bioware version etc become much more complex. Immunity to Toxins is likely to be problematic too. Two exemples : do usual anaesthetic work on your vampiric physiology ? Or muscle relaxants ?

[Starmage21]

Even if allowed to be a type-O vampire, you should still pay more than base price.

Why ? While off-the-rack bioware itself may cost you the same price as for everybody else, the implantation procedure is highly customized, one-of-a-kind and likely to need the use of specific tools and products, not to mention a pretty specialized knowledge I don't expect your average street doc to possess - think at least beta or possibly delta clinic.

Regeneration is the first hurdle to overcome, things like incisions, the removal of an organ to replace it with the bioware version etc become much more complex. Immunity to Toxins is likely to be problematic too. Two exemples : do usual anaesthetic work on your vampiric physiology ? Or muscle relaxants ?

The Toxins question might require more thought, but all thats necessary to surpress your regeneration is sticking you under a UV lamp (as much as a retarded cop-out as it is, at least it follows pop culture).

[Jaid]

You misunderstand me. I don't mean 'friends with guns who will come looking when you don't show up to the next meet' I mean 'friends with guns who are hanging out in the operating room'

i doubt there are very many doctors who will let you into the operating room with guns. you'd all have to be sterilized, for one thing, and you'd be getting in the way during difficult surgical procedures. furthermore, if any of you even know enough about surgery to know when the doctor is trying something funny, odds are good you don't need the street doc anyways.

besides, if the street doc waits until you're gone and then sells the information about what you are, he'll still make a fair bit of money. and if you come back (given that street docs with the knowledge and willingness to work on vampires is fairly rare, you'll most likely have to), he can be prepared for it. once again, the people who would love to get their hands on a type O vampire have resources to spare, much much more than the average shadowrunning team.

[Starmage21]

i doubt there are very many doctors who will let you into the operating room with guns. you'd all have to be sterilized, for one thing, and you'd be getting in the way during difficult surgical procedures. furthermore, if any of you even know enough about surgery to know when the doctor is trying something funny, odds are good you don't need the street doc anyways.

besides, if the street doc waits until you're gone and then sells the information about what you are, he'll still make a fair bit of money. and if you come back (given that street docs with the knowledge and willingness to work on vampires is fairly rare, you'll most likely have to), he can be prepared for it. once again, the people who would love to get their hands on a type O vampire have resources to spare, much much more than the average shadowrunning team.

And that hopefully means plenty of room for side-stories involving your contacts, and not necessarily GM dickery.

[Jaid]

And that hopefully means plenty of room for side-stories involving your contacts, and not necessarily GM dickery.

so it's GM dickery to actually live up to the description of the ability? it's not like the ability says you should go ahead and announce to the world your rare physiological advantage. in fact, the quality explicitly goes out of it's way to tell you that unpleasant people may essentially develop an interest in vivisecting you to see what makes you tick. it's not like the GM *forced* you to take a quality that explicitly says it will have drawbacks, is it? i would argue that if you're taking a quality that makes it appealing for others to want to perform incredibly unpleasant laboratory procedures on you, then you should not be surprised if sooner or later, somebody gets an urge to perform incredibly unpleasant laboratory procedures on you.

you may as well complain that your GM allowed you to buy a used vehicle because it has flaws in it, or that your second hand cyberware has an increased essence cost. it's not the GM being a dick when you chose to take the risk yourself, any more than the GM is being a dick if someone decides to collect a bounty on ghouls if your character is a ghoul, or any more than the GM is being a dick if your ork character is treated like crap by human supremacists. that's what the setting says *should* happen.

now sure, if you happen to have a loyalty 6 street doc contact who would know how to operate on people with regeneration and has access to bioware (and an appropriate background explaining it), no problem. go nuts. and as long as you treat your contact like you're loyalty 6 to him as well, it's not likely to ever evolve into a problem. but i'd have to see a pretty danged impressive background to let that fly in my gaming group (indeed, for any loyalty 6 contact, i expect to see a good explanation in the background and good roleplaying to support it)

[Rystefn]

...or, you get the surgery with your friends in the room because he's a street doc and doesn't care as much about sterilization as a normal doc (and neither should you with your immunity to pathogens, right?) and he's probably used to paranoid shadowrunners insisting on security like that anyway (you are already paranoid about security anyway, right?), you get off the table and make sure everything works as advertised (since you Regen, you should recover from surgery pretty quick, right?), then you geek the doc right there to keep your secret. Don't forget to set up the area jammer during the procedure so no messages get out. Leave the corpse in the can out back for the ghouls, cast a quick Sterilize spell on the way out. No muss. No fuss.

This ain't exactly rocket science, people.

[Triggvi]

type O system is only for bioware not cyberware. Pg 20 of augmented.

[Karoline]

i doubt there are very many doctors who will let you into the operating room with guns. you'd all have to be sterilized, for one thing, and you'd be getting in the way during difficult surgical procedures. furthermore, if any of you even know enough about surgery to know when the doctor is trying something funny, odds are good you don't need the street doc anyways.

besides, if the street doc waits until you're gone and then sells the information about what you are, he'll still make a fair bit of money. and if you come back (given that street docs with the knowledge and willingness to work on vampires is fairly rare, you'll most likely have to), he can be prepared for it. once again, the people who would love to get their hands on a type O vampire have resources to spare, much much more than the average shadowrunning team.

Because street docs are so concerned about being sterile, what with being street docs and all, especially when dealing with someone/something that can't get sick. And it is very difficult to tell the difference between, oh, say, putting organs in a body and making a call on the commlink. And corners don't exist, not at all.

Sure, I agree that the doc could make some good money by selling the info after the fact, but at that point, I think that is totally fair game. And at that point the vampire goes through the list of three people that knows their secret now that orgenleggers are suddenly after him/her like crazy. Doc may make some money, but not enough to keep a vampire shadowrunner off their case. And they may stand to make more money just keeping quiet and charging a nice premium for working on an infected. I mean is the one time boost of cash from selling out a vampire really worth having a vampire (and likely friends)? Especially with all the bonus pay you should be getting for specifically keeping quiet and working on infected?

You're right, the orgenleggers have more resources than the SR team, but the Doc is likely to be worried about their personal safety, and just like with corps, it is a question of actually bringing those resources to bare.

So sure, there are possible complications, and you have to be careful, but you're making it sound like the instant you get any sort of implant ever you will instantly be teleported to a dark room with orgenleggers pulling parts out of you forever.

[darthmord]

Not to mention that street docs like their reputations too. One doesn't get a lot of work when one gets the rep of selling his patients to organleggers.

[Doc Chase]

Y'know the intro to Payback, when Mel Gibson's being worked on in a grimy kitchen of some fat guy who sterilizes his tools (and his brain cells) in a glass of whiskey?

Yeah, that's what a 'runner gets 9 times out of 10.

[Walpurgisborn]

Not to mention that street docs like their reputations too. One doesn't get a lot of work when one gets the rep of selling his patients to organleggers.

The million or so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) he pulls for selling a type O Vamp is probably enough to set him for life. Don't really need much of a reputation when you're baking yourself brown on some Carribean island.