Swap for Technomancers... Options

[Jonny Reload]

In Unwired, there's an Echo called Swap which can be taken twice. Each time it lowers the penalty for sustaining threading by 1... So if you take it twice, does this mean you can just keep an unlimited amount of threads going?

Even worse, if you take the Bioware Echo, does this mean you have an infinite amount of skills at your finger tips?!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In Unwired, there's an Echo called Swap which can be taken twice. Each time it lowers the penalty for sustaining threading by 1... So if you take it twice, does this mean you can just keep an unlimited amount of threads going?

Even worse, if you take the Bioware Echo, does this mean you have an infinite amount of skills at your finger tips?!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

It would appear that way from the Rule Set... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neraph]

I thought there were a limit on how many threading attempts you could take, equal to like your Resonance or something...

And with Biowire: yeah, basically. But that one's integral to the skill. You get skillwires and the ability to emulate skillsofts, but since they're Complex Forms, they don't take up any memory space. That = theoretically infinite skillsofts emulated.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I thought there were a limit on how many threading attempts you could take, equal to like your Resonance or something...

And with Biowire: yeah, basically. But that one's integral to the skill. You get skillwires and the ability to emulate skillsofts, but since they're Complex Forms, they don't take up any memory space. That = theoretically infinite skillsofts emulated.

As long as you have both levels of Swap at least... otherwise you take a penalty to your Rolls due to Sustaining...

[Jonny Reload]

I thought there were a limit on how many threading attempts you could take, equal to like your Resonance or something...

I don't think there is unless you can find me a page reference... I don't think there complex forms are ruled by the same rules as response.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't think there is unless you can find me a page reference... I don't think there complex forms are ruled by the same rules as response.

They are not... You may have an unlimited number of Complex Forms, running at any given time, and your Bionode does not suffer at all... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neraph]

I wasn't talking about Complex Forms, but Threading attempts. And I may be just simplefying the "-2" for sustaining into a certain number that above which you can't thread anymore, as your dicepool is now 0 or less.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I wasn't talking about Complex Forms, but Threading attempts. And I may be just simplefying the "-2" for sustaining into a certain number that above which you can't thread anymore, as your dicepool is now 0 or less.

Gotcha... but with Swap (2 Levels) you no longer suffer any Sustaining Modifiers for Threading... by the Book at least... so it effectively approaches unlimited unless I am missing something...

Also, I am Not sure about the Threading Attempts vs. Actual Threading in your post above... Are you talking about how many times you are allowed to Thread a Specific CF? I know that that interpretation Can't be right, but for some reason I am confused... been a long day already... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[hobgoblin]

The problem as i see it is that threading negatives are -2 pr sustained thread. But the text in unwired do not seem to touch on the reduction being applied to the total or the pr thread modifier. That is, should the swap echo be applied before "multiplying" or after?

edit:
never mind, should have checked the errata. Ye gods.

[Smokeskin]

I don't see anywhere it applies a modifier per CF. So with lvl 2 Swap, the first thread is free, but no more than that.

Otherwise, it would also be totally overpowered, wouldn't it?

[hobgoblin]

I don't see anywhere it applies a modifier per CF. So with lvl 2 Swap, the first thread is free, but no more than that.

Otherwise, it would also be totally overpowered, wouldn't it?

check the errata, it mentions that it applies to the modifier...

as for overpowered, it costs the TM two echos (meaning two submersions and the accompanying karma cost).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

check the errata, it mentions that it applies to the modifier...

as for overpowered, it costs the TM two echos (meaning two submersions and the accompanying karma cost).

Way I read that is that it modifies the Sustaining Penalty per CF... so if you have both levels... No Sustaining Modifiers for CF's...
And yeah, it is 2 Submersions... Not so big a deal since the Technomancer did not suffer the Sustaining Modifier for the threaded CF being actively used anyways... it is nice, but not overpowered in my opinion...

[Badmoodguy88]

Simply having a huge number of skills soft available is not that much worse than having huge numbers of skill wires running all at the same time. You do not need that many skills all the time. Changing what skills are running before you use them as apposed to having them always on.

[Smokeskin]

Not overpowered? You can pre-thread "at home", until you get enough hits to reach 2xResonance for your CF rating, then sustain it, and continue through several CFs that way and sustain them all. You're only limited by what fading you can handle.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not overpowered? You can pre-thread "at home", until you get enough hits to reach 2xResonance for your CF rating, then sustain it, and continue through several CFs that way and sustain them all. You're only limited by what fading you can handle.

And?

Maybe your problem is allowing such things to continue... Not once have I ever seen our Technomancer do what you just said... Not once... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Udoshi]

Gotcha... but with Swap (2 Levels) you no longer suffer any Sustaining Modifiers for Threading... by the Book at least... so it effectively approaches unlimited unless I am missing something...

Yeah, the errata file.

[Yerameyahu]

Tymeaus, as always, your players magically avoid any game imbalance. Back in the real world, it's an issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The idea is that the rules shouldn't be broken by design, relying on the players or the GM to say, 'nah, I think I'll deliberately hold myself back'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[jakephillips]

Tymeaus, as always, your players magically avoid any game imbalance. Back in the real world, it's an issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The idea is that the rules shouldn't be broken by design, relying on the players or the GM to say, 'nah, I think I'll deliberately hold myself back'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yep, If left to RAW all complex forms at 12 or 14 until he sleeps and can no longer sustain the complex forms. I know some of you folks hate houserules but you might want to make a change to limit in some way. I would choose to limit it in some way.

[Surukai]

I hate the swap double echo for practical reasons. Yes it is imba with rating 12 programs where normal crappy hackers can barely hit rating 6 and is hardcapped at that level and hopelessly behind but the real problem is that every day starts with the technomancer rolling a mountain of dice rolls and boring every other player to death. This is the problem with technomancers already, they take way too much dicerolling just to do mundane tasks and all the other players sit there and yawn angrily wishing the technomancer to go F himself and his sprite rereregistration...

In my group we all sit there and HOPE he takes big time physical fading so he stops. The mage refuses to cast Increase Body on him to help him heal because it only means even more time sinks.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus, as always, your players magically avoid any game imbalance. Back in the real world, it's an issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The idea is that the rules shouldn't be broken by design, relying on the players or the GM to say, 'nah, I think I'll deliberately hold myself back'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It Has absolutely nothing to do with holding yourself back... It Has a lot more to do with being a responsible player who is just as interested in other's player's fun as their own... I did not say that it cannot be abused, all I said is that I have yet to actually see it... that is Two very different things...

But lets be honest here... there is not really ANY ruleset that cannot be abused if you put enough thought into it... Why would you want to though? After all, it is not a contest between the player and the GM... Or, maybe it is, but not at our table... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I hate the swap double echo for practical reasons. Yes it is imba with rating 12 programs where normal crappy hackers can barely hit rating 6 and is hardcapped at that level and hopelessly behind but the real problem is that every day starts with the technomancer rolling a mountain of dice rolls and boring every other player to death. This is the problem with technomancers already, they take way too much dicerolling just to do mundane tasks and all the other players sit there and yawn angrily wishing the technomancer to go F himself and his sprite rereregistration...

In my group we all sit there and HOPE he takes big time physical fading so he stops. The mage refuses to cast Increase Body on him to help him heal because it only means even more time sinks.

Just a simple note here... Programs are not Hard-Capped at Rating 6. HIgher rated programs are available, you just have to work at obtaining them a bit...

How about you roll some of those Technomancer rolls with another player that the GM trusts while the GM attends to the game? Works for us, for both Technomancers (and their Sprites) and for Mages (and their Spirits)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, the errata file.

Read the Eratta File... Sustaining penalties are per CF... if you have -2 Sustaining penalty PER CF, then you have NO Sustaining Penalties... per Eratta...

Same goes with Spells actually... And this argument is an old one... IS the Sustaining Penalty per Spell (Yes, Yes it is)... Do they Stack (They do at our table)... Unfortunately, some people on Dumpshock do not like that, because if they Stack, then Heightened Concentration can compensate for Multiple Spells being Sustained...

Can't have it both ways... if They do not Stack, then SWAP works per CF (As indicated in the text of the ability, even in Eratta)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yep, If left to RAW all complex forms at 12 or 14 until he sleeps and can no longer sustain the complex forms. I know some of you folks hate houserules but you might want to make a change to limit in some way. I would choose to limit it in some way.

But who really cares about Sustained, Threaded Rating 12 CF's? I know I don't... so it shaves off a IP or two for certain Matrix FUnctions... Big deal. A competent Hacker is already going through your systems anyways... Hell, My Hacker is generally better at the Hacking game than our equivalent Technomancer on about half of the rolls (We both have about 300 Karma)... so what if they do not suffer a Sustaining Penalty...

[Yerameyahu]

It's *all* about holding yourself back; you just described 'holding yourself back'. Do your players also buy Wires 3, but leave them turned off to avoid making the game less fun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The point of rules-based games is precisely *to* limit people, instead of relying on them to just 'not be overpowered'.

I care about having all my programs at 12. Sign me up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Given that programs are everything, you're simply not making sense, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They certainly do more than 'shave off an IP or two'. Stealth 12 is the classic example, or Command 12 for riggers…

You might as well say, 'who really cares about emotitoys for all skills?' Free +6 to everything, but only for certain players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It is functionally impossible to get programs above 6. It's like finding deltaware or a nuclear sub. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's *all* about holding yourself back; you just described 'holding yourself back'. Do your players also buy Wires 3, but leave them turned off to avoid making the game less fun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The point of rules-based games is precisely *to* limit people, instead of relying on them to just 'not be overpowered'.

I care about having all my programs at 12. Sign me up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Given that programs are everything, you're simply not making sense, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They certainly do more than 'shave off an IP or two'. Stealth 12 is the classic example, or Command 12 for riggers…

You might as well say, 'who really cares about emotitoys for all skills?' Free +6 to everything, but only for certain players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It is functionally impossible to get programs above 6. It's like finding deltaware or a nuclear sub. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Absolutely Wrong there Yerameyahu... I do not quantify my characters by how many dice I throw in a Game...
And your Emotitoy example is obviously incorrect as well... I have gone around the Boards on this one, and I am still amazed that it gets brought up so often... Empathy Software has very harsh limits on how it runs outside of an Emotitoy... Remove the Emotitoy, and you have the same restrictions on Empathy/Sensor Software that you have with ALL Software... the average runner is goung to get a +3 Dice to the relevant skills (If he even cares, I have seen many that do not)... why, because most devices capable of running it top out at Rating 3 unless you take steps to increase the base platform...

It is NOT Functionally impossible to have software rated higher than 6 (The Rules even allow for it)... I have a program or two, in game, that are that high (I have a rated 7 Agent after all)...
And as for Deltaware, also not functionally impossible (Just managed to upgrade my suite to Deltaware recently)...

Does it take time? Yes...
Does it require Resources that you may want to devote elsewhere? Yes...
Does it take effort on both the GM's and Players part? Yes...
Is it Impossible? No...

Programs are not everything Yerameyahu... as SO MANY PEOPLE are fond of saying, the difference between 6 and 12 dice is only 6 Dice (Average 2 Successes)... That being the case, it is NOT Everything... You are exagerating... Do Higher rated programs make things quicker... Possibly... But again, my anecdotal evidence does not show that... Our Technomancer often Threads his Stealth to 13+, and yet he OFTEN gets seen by the Systems we run against (Again, at our level we are not looking at hitting the local Stuffer Shack Systems here)... WHY? Because it is an OPPOSED ROLL, NOT A THRESHOLD (The only time Stealth is a Threshold is when you are Initiating a Hack into a System, once in, it is ALWAYS an opposed Roll)... Dice are capricious... And again, there are RULES in the Game to reign in the craziness if you do not like it... Like capping Hits on your Hacking Tests by your Logic (What a concept)... at that point, WHO CARES IF YOUR PREGRAMS ARE RATED AT 12+ when you only have a Logic of 4 (or in a Lot of character's cases, a Logic of 1-2)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Technomancers pay for the ability to have CF's threaded to a very high level... they deserve to shine a bit... Just as a Street Samurai with Wired/MBW 3 deserves to shine when he whips out his weapons and goes to town against the opposition. It is no less fun for me to watch an interesting combat, even if I only have 2 Passes (the case with the current game we are playing in)... My Primary character has 3 Passes... And yet, I am not the fastest character in our group (The Mages/Technomancer are aften faster than I am)... And a point... I often turn off my Wired/MBW to blend into the crowd; it has absolutely nothing to do with it being unfair to other player's characters... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Yes, Rules give Structure to a game... But the Rules do not hold me back. Nor do I feel a sense of personal angst if someone is better optimized than I am, or chooses a different path than I do. Our GM is up to the challenge of a myriad array of characters, and I always have to laugh when I hear someone say that it is the GM's/Rules job to hold people back... that is a bunch of bunk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

A lot of issues with the game, and player's Characters, can be solved before the game even starts by reviewing what the Player wants and actually looking at character sheets... if you are afraid to tell a player "No, that is not how it works... What is your goal here? Let me Help you with that." Well, then it is not the Game's fault that the character is broken... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)