[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly as I said: functionally impossible. In the realm of GM fiat. Essentially out of the question and out of the discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You didn't mention that you were using alternate Matrix rules. It kinda, y'know, changes everything? I, like everyone else, would assume you were using the default rules, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In the default rules, programs with *double* the rating of what anyone else can reasonably obtain is a big deal. It's not 'just 6 dice, just 2 successes'; it's double. It's 6 *more* than the other guy, 2 net successes against him. It's every definition of a big deal. It's the penalty for being *blind*, or for meatspace actions while using full VR. It's huge.

Nope, wrong. The entire point of rules-mediated games is to provide the framework for conflict resolution. The rules, by definition, hold you back. They define the limits of what is possible. That's what they're for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I certainly never said anyone 'didn't deserve to shine'. I said that it's not a non-issue if one character can get +6 to *all* his actions.

I assume what the player 'wants' is Rating 12 for every program he uses. 'Let me help you with that'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It's absolutely the game's fault, because that *is* how it works. That player isn't cheating, or even exploiting the rules; he's just playing normally.

Your argument (perennially) is that rules imbalance never matters, because all players are angels who would never intentional or unintentionally use that imbalance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I know that you say that's your experience, and I'm saying that's wonderful; it's also unique. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You shouldn't apply your anecdotal 'evidence' to the game in general.

Not that it matters, but you're wrong about the emotitoy (again). It's nigh-trivial to get Empathy running at 6 elsewhere, and why would you need to? You've got an emotitoy already. Or did you ban them and not tell me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Smokeskin]

If there is no choice, there is no balance. Increase hackingrelated skills? Increase CFs? Get Swap lvl 2? It is a total nobrainer, Swap lvl 2 gives a HUGE boost to everything.

It is still one of the best echoes if it only applies once - you'll always have your Stealth threaded with the benefit of multiple attempts at high rolls, and you can still thread other CFs per use. It is super awesome.

[ShadowWalker]

How this works depends on how you look at the way the modifiers work.
It can remove 1 modifier per level up to 2. So the first Threading is free,
but each threading after the first are unmodified as you have already
used up your 2 modifiers levels.

This is how I read the rules, or at least how I think they should be read.

[Surukai]

There is a tiny balancing factor with fading that at least force the technomancer to still keep some complex forms but it do eliminate the need for most CFs in a retarded way.

It had been more sane if the -2 sustaining penalty had applied only to drain/fading resistance instead of everything and thus eliminate the violent need for swapx2.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly as I said: functionally impossible. In the realm of GM fiat. Essentially out of the question and out of the discussion.

You didn't mention that you were using alternate Matrix rules. It kinda, y'know, changes everything? I, like everyone else, would assume you were using the default rules, Tymeaus. In the default rules, programs with *double* the rating of what anyone else can reasonably obtain is a big deal. It's not 'just 6 dice, just 2 successes'; it's double. It's 6 *more* than the other guy, 2 net successes against him. It's every definition of a big deal. It's the penalty for being *blind*, or for meatspace actions while using full VR. It's huge.

Nope, wrong. The entire point of rules-mediated games is to provide the framework for conflict resolution. The rules, by definition, hold you back. They define the limits of what is possible. That's what they're for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I certainly never said anyone 'didn't deserve to shine'. I said that it's not a non-issue if one character can get +6 to *all* his actions.

I assume what the player 'wants' is Rating 12 for every program he uses. 'Let me help you with that'? It's absolutely the game's fault, because that *is* how it works. That player isn't cheating, or even exploiting the rules; he's just playing normally.

Your argument (perennially) is that rules imbalance never matters, because all players are angels who would never intentional or unintentionally use that imbalance. I know that you say that's your experience, and I'm saying that's wonderful; it's also unique. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You shouldn't apply your anecdotal 'evidence' to the game in general.

Not that it matters, but you're wrong about the emotitoy (again). It's nigh-trivial to get Empathy running at 6 elsewhere, and why would you need to? You've got an emotitoy already. Or did you ban them and not tell me?

I am NOT using the optional rules from RAW for Hacking... even if that would be my preference... But that is neither here nor there...
I can agree that the Rules define what is possible, but you are not held back as long as you stay within the rule set. I can do anything, as long as the rule set allows it... Your statement that "it's not a non-issue if one character can get +6 to *all* his actions" is irrelevant, because there is no mechanic in the game that would allow that, so the argument itself is false... Are you really going to complain if the situational Skill (Automatics for Instance) that is currently required, has characters with a Dice Pool Difference of 6-10 as problematic? For Example... The face who is competant with 8-10 Dice, while the Street Sam has 18-20 Dice. What you should be comparing are the Street Samurai, or the Face, not one against the others...

IF 2 Technomancers can both thread to 12 on a CF, and One takes what he gets on the roll for threading and just rolls with it, accomplishing the goals with what he threaded (and all it takes, statistically, is a whopping 1 Second more to accomplish), why should he be looked down upon? The other Technomancer does the opposite... He Threads, and can only get to CF 8, does not like the result, and Threads again (At that point, it is a Simple Action, you do not get an unlimited "Buy" to get where you want to be with Threading after all, even if that is an interpretation, as Threading takes no real time). This continues until he gets to CF 12. Now, someone will say, "But he could do that in the Morning as long as he has Swap at 2 levels, and then it stays that way." Sure... HE could,a nd deal with ALL of the attendant Physical Drain (I will not let the Technomancer apply no damage because he did not take any of the boosts... that is breaking the intent of the rules). This is probably why our Technomancer Players (I am one of them now) do not just Thread until they are at the Maximum Boost to their CF.

As for the argument that 6 dice is a Big Deal in the grand scheme of things... Have you even read the Threads describing, in very great detail, the dissatisfaction that most Dumpshockers feel is the difference between a 0 Skill Rank and a 6 Skill Rank? It is just 6 ranks, and 6 dice, after all. Not only is it the most common argument in those threads, it is hammered time and time again at those of us who believe that the Fluff matters... I do not remember where you fall on that argument, but the majority here see that as the biggest drawback of a Skill System with only a Range of 1-7... Personally, I do not agree. But I try to structure this argument so that it will appeal to the vast majority. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

What I will say is this... I do believe that the difference is great (6 Dice IS 6 Dice, and even if the average result of those 6 Dice is only 2 Net Successes, teh reality is that it is a range of 1-6 Successes)... BUT, in the long run, that is the difference in Hacking of only 1 IP worth of actions, so NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL in the long run (Really, only a single seconds worth of actions for the typiucal hacker with 3 IP in VR)... If that Single IP's worth of actions destroys your game, then something else is entirely wrong here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Sure... If a technomancer wants to get to Rating 12 in his threaded CF's, he is free to do so, but what I was arguing against is the "I will just roll it until I get there and then sustain it forever" mentality that is prevelant here... People argue that if you can have unlimited threaded CF's that this practice will be common... And I countered with evidence (Anecdotal to be sure) that that is not the case... Our Technomancer does not do this, even though he has Swap at 2 Levels. Typically, he threads CF's when he needs them, and then sustains the ones that he needs AT THAT TIME... it is always situational at our table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Also, because I know it will come up... What about the Hacker, is he lefgt out in the cold? Absolutely not... If you want a rating 12 Program, you will either have to program it yourself (Very Time Consuming), or you find a Software R&D Facility and you see if you can steal one. The book mentions that it is available (At the GM's Discretion), so why would you not allow the Character the chance to try to obtain one. It WILL likely become the focus of many sessions, if not a complete story arc, but there is no reason to deny the character the chance to obtain it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

ALSO, I never said it does not matter in a theoretical sense... But, In Practice, most of the things that are claimed to be "Just SO Broken" in theory, I have yet to see in actual Practice... Theory crafting is all well and good, but is not representative of any games that I have played in (Personal OR Convention). Maybe your games dwell more in the theoretical realm... Mine do not... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Evidence, even anecdotal, still refutes the claim that it always happens in a game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for the Emotitoy... It was banned immediately upon the introduction of the Arsenal Ruleset. Mentioned it many times, and had protracted discussions with Cain about it as well... The emotitoy is ridiculous in its base form. If you want an emotitoy in our game (No Runner has even wanted it), then you buy a drone, mod it out to the best rating you can get (Typically Rating 5 matrix Stats, as they can only be upgraded by +2) and then you buy the empathy software (Rating 5, Remember)... the cost offsets the benefits when approached this way. In Practice, what happens at our table is the purchase of a sensor suite, with the program run on the device itself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Finally (Yes, I know I am long winded today)... IF you are having trrouble at your table because your Players are Not "Angels" as you say, and they continue to abuse the system "Within the rules"... well, maybe the game should change to what the Players want rather than what the GM wants. I know that the GM structures the game, but without Players that want to play that game, there is no game. Our table went the other way. Our GM told us what the game was about, and we made characters that would fit that game. If we have a character build that is out of line, the GM reigns it in until it fits, or asks us to make a new character. That has only happened a time or two.

It takes both a GM and Players to have a game, and if they are not communicating their desires to each other, well, then your games will tend to have issues. I do not "Exploit" the rules within the TheoryCrafting realm, because it is not fun, for me or the other players. I have as much responsibility to my group as they have to me. If that balance changes, then it is addressed. The Players at our Table are by no means "Angels" but we do understand one another. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Sorry for the Wall of Text...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There is a tiny balancing factor with fading that at least force the technomancer to still keep some complex forms but it do eliminate the need for most CFs in a retarded way.

It had been more sane if the -2 sustaining penalty had applied only to drain/fading resistance instead of everything and thus eliminate the violent need for swapx2.

But here is the Thing... I see no Violent Need to have Swap... It is not even on my Technomancer's list of Echoes that she wants...

After all, You do not have a sustaining penalty to a CF that you are directly using... So yes, Swap is nice if you want 10 CF's running at all times, but it is far from a Requirement, as you can thread on the fly and use them when you really need them.

[Yerameyahu]

Again, you can't get rating 12 as a nonTM. Maybe, via GM-Fiat only, you could get one or two rating 7 programs. That's a vast gulf between what TM can get and what others can get, period. All 12s, versus all 6s. It's a huge deal.

Exactly: you're defending the Empathy software via a house rule, and you're defending this Swap imbalance via an optional rule. Neither are the default rules.

Again, I understand that (somehow) no imbalance problem ever comes up at your table. I accept it as fact, however incredible. That doesn't matter, though, because we're discussing the game in general, not your table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The fact that you don't see S&S abused, you don't see emotitoys abused, you don't see possession abused… this has zero effect on the *general* discussion of these rules, Tymeaus. You're lucky that there's no problem, but you're wrong to say that no problem can possibly exist. And you *do* say that, every time any discussion of any imbalance ever happens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The issue is not munchkinry or bad GMing; the issue is broken-by-design rules. The rules are intended to be balanced. Even though it's an impossible goal, it's still the goal.

[Jaid]

as i recall, there is a penalty for attempting the same action multiple times in SR4. haven't checked 4A for it specifically. but in any case, back in the day if you threaded stealth, didn't like the result, and tried again, you suffered -2 dice on the second attempt, -4 dice on the third, etc, until the GM deemed sufficient time had passed for you to make another attempt free of the modifier (personally, i would probably require that you actually attempt to use the program in an important situation before letting you attempt to thread it again free of penalty... and it would only clear 2 points of penalty away per time you use the program. or you could just wait for the next day, that would work too).

anyways, i don't see the emulated skillsofts being a huge issue. the TM would have to pay for their upkeep, and must have an actual copy of the skillsoft to emulate anyways. the only difference is that the TM doesn't have to buy skillwires with cash (instead, the technomancer must buy them with submersions). if the TM does not want to pay cash upkeep on the skillsofts he wishes to emulate, he must pay karma, and that's a resource which the TM desparately needs as well.

on a side note tymaeus, you do realise you've altered the rules for threading by not letting people avoid drain? as written, you can just choose to use 0 hits and you're good (although an alternate rule might require that you state how many hits you want to use *before* you roll, i suppose, but that would still be a house rule)

(personally, my opinion on threading: you should be able to just choose how much threading you want, resist the drain, which may be a bit higher to compensate for the ease of getting the higher numbers, and carry on. the maximum threading amount should equal your software skill (specialisation could actually increase the amount, even though it is not a modifier to the skill per se). perhaps significantly stronger, but also much less dice rolling)

[tagz]

as i recall, there is a penalty for attempting the same action multiple times in SR4. haven't checked 4A for it specifically. but in any case, back in the day if you threaded stealth, didn't like the result, and tried again, you suffered -2 dice on the second attempt, -4 dice on the third, etc, until the GM deemed sufficient time had passed for you to make another attempt free of the modifier (personally, i would probably require that you actually attempt to use the program in an important situation before letting you attempt to thread it again free of penalty... and it would only clear 2 points of penalty away per time you use the program. or you could just wait for the next day, that would work too).

anyways, i don't see the emulated skillsofts being a huge issue. the TM would have to pay for their upkeep, and must have an actual copy of the skillsoft to emulate anyways. the only difference is that the TM doesn't have to buy skillwires with cash (instead, the technomancer must buy them with submersions). if the TM does not want to pay cash upkeep on the skillsofts he wishes to emulate, he must pay karma, and that's a resource which the TM desparately needs as well.

on a side note tymaeus, you do realise you've altered the rules for threading by not letting people avoid drain? as written, you can just choose to use 0 hits and you're good (although an alternate rule might require that you state how many hits you want to use *before* you roll, i suppose, but that would still be a house rule)

(personally, my opinion on threading: you should be able to just choose how much threading you want, resist the drain, which may be a bit higher to compensate for the ease of getting the higher numbers, and carry on. the maximum threading amount should equal your software skill (specialisation could actually increase the amount, even though it is not a modifier to the skill per se). perhaps significantly stronger, but also much less dice rolling)

Trying Again
Just because a character has failed a test doesn't mean she has no hope of ever succeeding. A character may attempt a task she has previously failed, but each successive attempt incurs a -2 dice pool modifier. A magician who has failed twice to summon a spirit, for example, can try again with a -4 modifier.
If the character takes the time to rest for a sufficient period (anywhere from 5 minutes to 1 hour, as the gamemaster decides), the negative modifier no longer applies and the character gets a fresh start.

Now this goes into interpretation land. Did the character "fail" because they did not achieve the number they set for themselves and tried again, or did they NOT fail because they were successful in threading?

And take into consideration that if you say failed because of the intent, well then do we apply it to shooting a gun after the first shot misses, because even though they succeeded in firing they failed to hit? Not trying to derail here, just saying that the interpretation used here needs consistency with the rest of the game.

[Jonny Reload]

Again, you can't get rating 12 as a nonTM. Maybe, via GM-Fiat only, you could get one or two rating 7 programs. That's a vast gulf between what TM can get and what others can get, period. All 12s, versus all 6s. It's a huge deal.

Psssst, read pg. 115 of Unwired, it's called Optimization and Programming your own Software (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Just sayin...

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. Oh yeah? So your *one* Rating 12 (Optimization 6) program will only take a Software + Logic (12, 1 month) test, then a Software + Logic (6, 1 month) test, and it will degrade; if we're talking about a Hacking program (and of course we are), that's Software + Logic (24, 1 month), then Software + Logic (6, 1 month). For one program.

Remember that -1/roll on Extended Tests isn't an optional rule by the current RAW (bleh). Hopefully, your GM won't be interested in the optional rule that any glitches cause bugs, because you'd also need to spend time finding and repairing those (Threshold 16, 1 week or 1 hour, depending on what part of the book you believe). There are some tricks to speed this whole process up, but they're not trivial: Rushing the Job should definitely be used in conjunction with the glitch=bugs rule, and hijacking a Programming Environment is a major ongoing hack all by itself.

Possibly you could bribe the GM to say that self-coded programs don't degrade, but the FAQ and Errata don't say they don't (and it's not logical for them not to). If you do convince your GM, you only have to repeat this process a *dozen* times or so, depending on how many things you want to be as good as that Technomancer at. Best case (no glitches at all, 100% uptime of Programming Environment), that's like 6 weeks for each of a dozen programs (well over a year), and assuming they magically don't degrade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smokeskin]

Again, I understand that (somehow) no imbalance problem ever comes up at your table. I accept it as fact, however incredible. That doesn't matter, though, because we're discussing the game in general, not your table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The fact that you don't see S&S abused, you don't see emotitoys abused, you don't see possession abused… this has zero effect on the *general* discussion of these rules, Tymeaus. You're lucky that there's no problem, but you're wrong to say that no problem can possibly exist. And you *do* say that, every time any discussion of any imbalance ever happens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually, it seems that he's saying that 6 extra dice isn't enough of a difference to matter. By that definition, I guess he's right. Almost everything is indeed balanced withing 6 dice.

My imbaradar is a lot more sensitive than his, that's for sure.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed: I'll take those +6 to *everything*, yes please! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

With most of my characters +6 is the difference between rolling 10-15 dice, and over 20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smokeskin]

With most of my characters +6 is the difference between rolling 10-15 dice, and over 20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually, only the 15 dice gets over 20 with +6 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Hida Tsuzua]

Possibly you could bribe the GM to say that self-coded programs don't degrade, but the FAQ and Errata don't say they don't (and it's not logical for them not to). If you do convince your GM, you only have to repeat this process a *dozen* times or so, depending on how many things you want to be as good as that Technomancer at. Best case (no glitches at all, 100% uptime of Programming Environment), that's like 6 weeks for each of a dozen programs (well over a year), and assuming they magically don't degrade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

From my understanding of the errata, self-programmed programs do not degrade by default especially in the -1 rating per month way. Instead it's moved to that ever fun land of GM's discretion (it's not even an optional rule anymore). Admittingly it's not the safest refuge, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

As for programming, you can easily reach a high enough software test to make a rating 12 hacking program even buying hits and extended test degradation (Logic 4 + Software 4 + Analytic Mind 2 + Programming Suite 5). However that program will take 13 months (11 months to make the program and 2 to make optimization 6) to make and that plays holy hell with almost any RPG timeline. Your teammates will kill you for having to pay over a year's worth of lifestyle cost though (spoofing helps but that makes programming take even longer). If you allowed people to program forever before play or hackers exist in some strange pocket of space-time (such as Missions), it could work.

On the other hand, forcing an archetype to sit in a basement for years drinking Mountain Dew so that he can play with others is terrible design.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

anyways, i don't see the emulated skillsofts being a huge issue. the TM would have to pay for their upkeep, and must have an actual copy of the skillsoft to emulate anyways. the only difference is that the TM doesn't have to buy skillwires with cash (instead, the technomancer must buy them with submersions). if the TM does not want to pay cash upkeep on the skillsofts he wishes to emulate, he must pay karma, and that's a resource which the TM desparately needs as well.

on a side note tymaeus, you do realise you've altered the rules for threading by not letting people avoid drain? as written, you can just choose to use 0 hits and you're good (although an alternate rule might require that you state how many hits you want to use *before* you roll, i suppose, but that would still be a house rule)

If you are going to emulate Skillsofts on a regular basis, the cheap/economical way to use them is to obtain cracked versions, Emulate them and then purchase them as a CF (Which you are allowed to do)... Degradation problem is solved at that point. Though you are right... it takes precious Karma to do so. Or you subscribe to a Service that charges you a base fee for Monthly Downloads on Demand (Yes, I know, GM Fiat), or just use the Freeware/Open Source Rating 4 Activesoft Programs (Yes, I know, ALSO GM Fiat)... Of course, you could always just buy them legally... upgrades are then free, and there is no worried about tracking your "Skillsofts" nbecause they are not actually on the web themselves...

I do realize that if I ran the Game, the TM would indeed be penalized because I do not believe in the "I will thread until I get what I want" method, especially with no penalty. I do know that the TM could indeed choose to apply 0 hits for 0 drain... I do not like that if it is abused. Fortunately, as Yerameyahu continues to remind me, the players at my table are approaching sainthood... They do not abuse it. In the end, It WOULD be a house rule, but unfortunately, I am not running the game, I am a player. Does not change the fact that I would love to institute a few changes here and there (Not many, just one or two actually)...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hehe. Oh yeah? So your *one* Rating 12 (Optimization 6) program will only take a Software + Logic (12, 1 month) test, then a Software + Logic (6, 1 month) test, and it will degrade; if we're talking about a Hacking program (and of course we are), that's Software + Logic (24, 1 month), then Software + Logic (6, 1 month). For one program.

Remember that -1/roll on Extended Tests isn't an optional rule by the current RAW (bleh). Hopefully, your GM won't be interested in the optional rule that any glitches cause bugs, because you'd also need to spend time finding and repairing those (Threshold 16, 1 week or 1 hour, depending on what part of the book you believe). There are some tricks to speed this whole process up, but they're not trivial: Rushing the Job should definitely be used in conjunction with the glitch=bugs rule, and hijacking a Programming Environment is a major ongoing hack all by itself.

Possibly you could bribe the GM to say that self-coded programs don't degrade, but the FAQ and Errata don't say they don't (and it's not logical for them not to). If you do convince your GM, you only have to repeat this process a *dozen* times or so, depending on how many things you want to be as good as that Technomancer at. Best case (no glitches at all, 100% uptime of Programming Environment), that's like 6 weeks for each of a dozen programs (well over a year), and assuming they magically don't degrade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The fact that it is difficult does not mean that it is impossible... You can indeed have access to Rating (Whatever) Programs depending upon what your GM will allow. Obviously, there are System Ratings above 6, There are Firewall Ratings above 6... the logic extends (And is supported by the Books) that you can have Programs rated higher than 6... It is Not even an Optional Rule by the book, just something that the GM controls. You know, like most of the game...

For me.. .I have 3 Programs rated higher than 6... One is a 7 (Agent), One is 10 (Encryption) and the Last is 10 (Stealth)... It did not take as long as you like to posit... Longest one took me 12 weeks if I remember correctly (The Agent). The rest I did in less than 3-4 Each. Was not as hard as you are Indicating... And yes, we use decrementing Dice Pools per roll. It Does not hurt you all that much when you have a Dice pool, with all applicable Bonuses, at around 17 Dice or so.

[Yerameyahu]

There's GM control and then there's GM control. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If I've misrepresented the programming rules, point it out; to me, it looks pretty bleak.

Setting that aside, let's take a look: you have three whole programs above 6, and none are 12, and you apparently used someone specialized in programming. The Technomancer has all programs at 12, and doesn't need to spend the money, time, and skill points on it (yes, he needs the CFs and 2 Submersions). Advantage? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hida Tsuzua, I agree that the GM could decide that the errata says that self-coded programs don't degrade, but it doesn't actually say that, and it's not a logical or balance interpretation. Regardless, it's as you say: still a beyond massive time sink, especially when taking into account the sheer number of programs one would want (hacking, common use, autosoft, pilot, system, sensor…), or even the smaller number one *needs*.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Hida Tsuzua, I agree that the GM could decide that the errata says that self-coded programs don't degrade, but it doesn't actually say that, and it's not a logical or balance interpretation. Regardless, it's as you say: still a beyond massive time sink, especially when taking into account the sheer number of programs one would want (hacking, common use, autosoft, pilot, system, sensor…), or even the smaller number one *needs*.

The relevant quote is "Software programmed by the hacker and Open Source programs never degrade in this fashion, but may require patching to remain current at the gamemaster’s discretion." The -1 rating per month is the only degrading rules that exist and it points out that degrading is not due to SOTA but rather is a method to detour pirating (otherwise a rating 6 automatics skillsoft going to 0 in 6 months really doesn't make any sense). So a self-made program doesn't need to commit program suicide and thus doesn't degrade expect under GM's discretion. As I said, it's not an ironclad refugee, but it's likely to appear as any other GM's discretion thing like initiative boosts from tacnets and less likely than optional rules.

However, to program even a halfway decent program suite at rating 6 takes roughly 5 years. And that's just impossible for shadowrun to handle. Really high rating programs need to way more common and easy to get so everyone can play the rating 12 game, or overthreading needs to be cut down. I prefer the latter but either way works. Technomancers will be fine either way since they still get sprites and echos.

To get back to swap, it's crazy good since it annihilates one of the few checks on a technomancer's power, sustaining. They were generally good about this except for swap (no technomantic sustaining foci, RAM widget takes hours to make and causes fade). I wonder if limiting threads to Resonance or your System rating will help it out. You'll merely have a lot of Complex Forms and overthreads rather than all of them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There's GM control and then there's GM control. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If I've misrepresented the programming rules, point it out; to me, it looks pretty bleak.

Setting that aside, let's take a look: you have three whole programs above 6, and none are 12, and you apparently used someone specialized in programming. The Technomancer has all programs at 12, and doesn't need to spend the money, time, and skill points on it (yes, he needs the CFs and 2 Submersions). Advantage? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hida Tsuzua, I agree that the GM could decide that the errata says that self-coded programs don't degrade, but it doesn't actually say that, and it's not a logical or balance interpretation. Regardless, it's as you say: still a beyond massive time sink, especially when taking into account the sheer number of programs one would want (hacking, common use, autosoft, pilot, system, sensor…), or even the smaller number one *needs*.

Considering I am equal to the Technomancer in the time it takes me to hack a system, and often beat him in actually doing so, I would say the advantage is mine (Unless there is no Wireless Link, and he can use his Skinlink Echo, while I cannot access the Hardware Directly)... He is better than me at some Hacking Pools, and I generally beat him in others (Depends upon who may or may not spend edge)... which is about what you would expect with the capriciousness of the Dice pools, and IP's in General (He has 3 in VR, about to get his 4th, and I have 5)... When it comes to EW though, I FAR outshine him...

Yes... Programming takes time, but you can conceivably cut that time to 1/8th if you so desire (Programming Environment (1/2), Rush the Job (1/2), and Edge Expenditure (Optional Rule for 1/2)) which will make it feasible if you wish to go that route. Of course, if you reduce the Interval by spending Edge, you cannot Use Edge to add to the Roll...

It is not beyond the realm of possibility to Get ALL of your programs to the levels of a Technomancer, assuming you have a lot of Time and a GM willing to let you do so... Our Campaign has lasted for 2.5 Real Years of Game Time and has run for almost 15 months in Game, If I remember correctly. My Programs are not up to the Standards of the Technomancer at his Best, but His Best gives him a LOT of Fading, and he Rarely even tries to get to the Optimal Rating 14 CF that he could conceivably attain. Most of his CF's are not even a Rating 5, let alone a Rating 7 (Like his Stealth CF is)...

I will admit, though, that a FULLY OPTIMIZED Technomancer with all his CF's at Maximum before Threading, Two Submersions, and then the patience of the GM to allow him to continuously thread until he maximizes his CF Potential, with little to no attention paid towards the time this will take, and his PHYSICAL Fading (6 Boxes at Response 6) per CF... well then yes, this is Broken... If you are plagued with this scenario, I give you my condolences... But I have yet to see it in the years that SR4 has been in Print...

[UmaroVI]

with little to no attention paid towards the time this will take

Uh, in-game time, it will take like a minute. Tops.

Basically, what you're saying is that the technomancer ... in Your group ... holds back ... in Order To not ... Overshadow ... you. That's very nice of him.
...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Uh, in-game time, it will take like a minute. Tops.

Basically, what you're saying is that the technomancer ... in Your group ... holds back ... in Order To not ... Overshadow ... you. That's very nice of him.
...

A Minute is a long time to be sitting there in the MAtrix doing absolutely NOTHING but Threading...

You would be very, very wrong in that assessment... He just does not relish the idea of him taking potentially 7-13 Physical Drain (1-6 Stun if resulting CF Equal to Resonance or lower) to go to the best CF he can get (14); he takes what he thinks he can deal with (As far as Damage) and then just moves along... Very Different attitude indeed...

And My technomancer has the Exact.... Same.... Philosophy.... (See, I can do that too... neat huh?)

I find it very funny that everyone is willing to just shrug off the Multiple hits of 6+Physical Damage to Thread to 12+ CF's... Seems very metagamey to me... I, for one, am not generally willing to just suck up the equivalent Damage of an Assault Rifle each and every time that I try to do something in the Matrix... I guess that normal Technomancers just don't worry about that kind of damage at all, do they? Get Real here...

[UmaroVI]

You seem to Have ... missed The point ... of The Thread ... Swap lets technomancers ... not need To Go Anywhere ... in the Matrix to Thread ... they can do all the Threading they Want To ... for the Day ... after they Wake ... Up ... and then They can Sustain ... the Threads ... with No Penalty ... granted, you Don't ... Generally ... want to Thread up to the Maximum ... but with Swap, you ... Can thread Yourself +2 or +3 to ... EVERYTHING ... every Day ... all the Time ... more than That ... Is ... Debatable on Some ... Programs ... But not Really needed for Swap ... to Be too Good.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You seem to Have ... missed The point ... of The Thread ... Swap lets technomancers ... not need To Go Anywhere ... in the Matrix to Thread ... they can do all the Threading they Want To ... for the Day ... after they Wake ... Up ... and then They can Sustain ... the Threads ... with No Penalty ... granted, you Don't ... Generally ... want to Thread up to the Maximum ... but with Swap, you ... Can thread Yourself +2 or +3 to ... EVERYTHING ... every Day ... all the Time ... more than That ... Is ... Debatable on Some ... Programs ... But not Really needed for Swap ... to Be too Good.

Irritating Post at best...


Anyways, The possible +6 dice does not a massive advantage make, so the +2 to +3 you are talking about is completely irrelevant... oh wait, I already said that...

Swap is just fine as it is in my opinion (And No, My Technomancer does not HAVE Swap, nor does she intend to actually get it, so not arguing this because I have some ulterior motive or anything)...

Good Day...