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> Healing and magic
Pogo Pete
post Sep 13 2010, 01:48 AM
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Are both patient and healer required to remain stationary for the x-amount of combat turns that a healing test is slated to take (both First Aid and Magical Healing)?

Can all targets within a spell's area of effect defend against the spell or can they only resist damage (as in projectile blast)?

Does a magician who declares counterspelling on others forfeit taking any other action that combat turn or can he take action as per normal? Are there any negative modifiers for being in counterspelling-mode (as in sustaining spells)? If the answers are no and no, wouldn't it make sense for the mage to declare counterspelling for everyone all the time?

Mindprobe: Probe for one piece of info per complex action. Does the target only get one chance to resist the probing or once every combat turn?

This post has been edited by Pogo Pete: Sep 13 2010, 02:02 AM
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Summerstorm
post Sep 13 2010, 02:06 AM
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Well...

First: Good question. The healing spell is touch and has to be sustained for a few rounds to become permanent. But to sustain no further contact should be required... also someone with deep wounds running around while getting healed. Should at least give some penalties or something. All those wounds breaking up again and such? GM-thing, i would say. I would like my healers to have to stay in contact and don't do much moving.

Second: Everyone resist anything. If it is an indirect combat spell anyone can dodge seperatly.

Third: No and no. Yes a magician should cover his whole team all the time when on a mission. It is just the thing of saying: Ah and yeah, COUNTERSPELLING for EVERYONE.
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Karoline
post Sep 13 2010, 02:15 AM
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There are no penalties associated with either the mage or paitent moving around, and contact isn't required past the initial casting. The sustaining to make permanent can be done without contact (or LoS for that matter). The only penalty is the -2 that the mage takes for sustaining a spell (unless using a focus).

Like Storm said, everyone resists always. There is no 'target the weakest member to deny everyone else their defenses'.

Once again, Storm got it, no and no. There is no reason whatsoever for a mage to not be counterspelling the entire group.

No more saves for the person. The mage just has to sustain the spell and they can continue reading the person's mind indefinitely.
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Pogo Pete
post Sep 13 2010, 03:05 AM
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Thank you for your (very speedy) replies.

Some follow up questions/comments:

- Heavily wounded character running around before healing takes effect could perhaps add to the healing time by a factor of 1.5? I'll try that and see how it plays.

- Everyone in the area of effect resists both spell and damage, as I thought.
So secondary targets within the blast radius of say a grenade also get a chance to dodge the blast? The book isn't very clear on that.
What happens when the primary target successfully defends against the lobbed grenade but the attack roll is not a critical glitch (blows up in attackers hand)? Does this mean the grenade is a dud or that it's thrown clear out of everyone's vicinity?

- Counterspelling for everyone, all the time with no penalties or reduced actions means counterspelling technically isn't a skill but more akin to a shield spell with free sustain (albeit with a variable level of protection.)
Not the most exciting way to implement this in my opinion.

- No more saves for the hapless security guard, he just has to sit there and have his brain tapped for as long as the mage can stay awake? Damn that's harsh!
I would have thought that the target would have the same opportunity to shake off the spell as with Mental Manipulations: every Force Combat Turns Willpower &Cntr to reduce Spellcasting Hits (Escape from Grapple works the same way technically).
So basically the only recourse a mundane character has against Mindprobe is to search frantically for the source of the spell?
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 13 2010, 03:10 AM
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Feel free to adjust things like that Mindprobe to suit your group.
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CeeJay
post Sep 13 2010, 07:07 AM
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QUOTE (Pogo Pete @ Sep 13 2010, 03:48 AM) *
Does a magician who declares counterspelling on others forfeit taking any other action that combat turn or can he take action as per normal? Are there any negative modifiers for being in counterspelling-mode (as in sustaining spells)? If the answers are no and no, wouldn't it make sense for the mage to declare counterspelling for everyone all the time?


Just one more comment on counterspelling:
The declaration of counterspelling is a free action. So a magician can take other actions in his pass but he must spend a free action to activate counterspelling on any target other than himself.

To keep counterspelling active the protected target has to stay in the magicians line-of-sight. So, while there are no negative dicepool modifiers for sustaining counterspelling, the magician is surely handicapped, because he has to keep all protected targets in his field of vision. Usually this is the fact that keeps magicians at my table from declaring counterspelling "for everyone all the time".

The relevant rules are on page 185 SR4A in the first paragraph under "Spell Defense".

QUOTE (Pogo Pete @ Sep 13 2010, 05:05 AM) *
So secondary targets within the blast radius of say a grenade also get a chance to dodge the blast? The book isn't very clear on that.

No, secondary targets don't get a dodge roll to defend against a grenade. <sarcasm> Why should this be similar to defending against, say, a fireball spell? After all, this is Shadowrun we are talking about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) </sarcasm>
By the way, you can even deny the primary target a dodge roll by targeting the patch of ground between his feet. The grenade attack roll is then treated as a success test.

-CJ
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 13 2010, 02:44 PM
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Off-topic: that really should be how grenades are targeted anyway. Someone's ability to wiggle isn't relevant for an explosion, and letting them dodge the attack really screws the already screwy scatter rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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TommyTwoToes
post Sep 13 2010, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (Pogo Pete @ Sep 12 2010, 11:05 PM) *
Thank you for your (very speedy) replies.

Some follow up questions/comments:

- Heavily wounded character running around before healing takes effect could perhaps add to the healing time by a factor of 1.5? I'll try that and see how it plays.

-

Just to address this part, the healing rules are quirky at the extreme cases.

Being on fire is only -3 dice. We had a group with a Trauma doc on the runners team, he was starting with a dicepool in the low to mid 20's to do first aid on gunshots. So if you were cybered all the way up, and a mage, and on fire, he was still rolling more than 10 dice to close up that gunshot.

Same stuff happens with uber-body trolls and orcs, they heal from anything other than death in a day or 2, even under horrible conditions.

Remember that human average is 3 in a stat so their base healing roll is 6 dice. If they stay at home (-1 die), they only get to roll 5, which is 1 box healed per day if you buy successes.

Contrarywise, the Troll with a body of 9 starts with 18 dice. If he is living in an abandoned warehouse, that is on fire (-3), he will still be rolling 15 dice, which is 3 hits when buying successes (or almost a machine pistol wound). Each Day.
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Neurosis
post Sep 13 2010, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 12 2010, 11:10 PM) *
Off-topic: that really should be how grenades are targeted anyway. Someone's ability to wiggle isn't relevant for an explosion, and letting them dodge the attack really screws the already screwy scatter rules. smile.gif


Why would you ever not be aiming for the floor (which gets no defense roll) somewhere vaguely near them anyway? Higher net hits that way. And getting it "right between their legs" isn't worth it even if you can since the grenade doesn't go off till your NEXT IP and they might get a chance to move before then.

Or have I misinterpreted some rules?

Oh my this is off topic indeed.

QUOTE
Same stuff happens with uber-body trolls and orcs, they heal from anything other than death in a day or 2, even under horrible conditions.


In my campaign there is essentially a house rule that if you have six or more boxes of damage after magical healing/first aid is attempted you NEED some kind of medical attention (visit a street doc, pay them 1,000 Nuyen, etc.) before you can begin natural healing.
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 13 2010, 08:34 PM
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That's my point.
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Neurosis
post Sep 13 2010, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 13 2010, 04:34 PM) *
That's my point.


Okay, I just wanted to make sure that the way my PC has been using his grenades has in fact been legal.
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Dahrken
post Sep 13 2010, 09:08 PM
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Alternatively, you may use a troll adept optimized for thrown weapons : if you stun the targe wih a grenade straight in his face, he cannot move away before it explode !
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Sep 13 2010, 09:12 PM
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There are optional rules for healing in Augmentation. Stuff like, rolling BOD instead of BODx2 for natural healing. Broken limbs and worse when getting a glitch or critical glitch when soaking damage or healing, etc. It adds to the "post-lethality" of the game, when you need to get back on your feet ASAP because any minute now whomever is after you will find you.
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Pogo Pete
post Sep 14 2010, 01:03 AM
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Thanks all for the input again.

I'm considering letting any characters in projectile blast range that happen to be in full defense mode to take a 1d4 meter dive away from the epicentre.
I've run some simulations with my player's characters (starting level) and I keep wasting them.

Probably a very noob question: when are the healing points actually applied? A character who gets healed for 5 boxes gets them:
a. All at once on the spellcasting turn and then it's a matter of sustaining the spell.
b. One box per turn that the spell is sustained.
c. All at once after the spell has been sustained for 5 turns.

What happens when the sustained heal spell is disrupted before the 5 turns are up?
a. Patient regains all 5 boxes of healed damage.
b. Patient regains the number of boxes equal to the number of turns left when the spell got disrupted.
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 14 2010, 02:25 AM
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1d4 isn't very SR. How about (hits) meters on an Gymnastics + Agility Test? That's the RAW for a standing jump.
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Pogo Pete
post Sep 14 2010, 02:49 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 13 2010, 08:25 PM) *
1d4 isn't very SR. How about (hits) meters on an Gymnastics + Agility Test? That's the RAW for a standing jump.


You're right that does make more sense.
Any answers on when to apply the healed boxes and what happens when a sustained heal gets disrupted?
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Neurosis
post Sep 14 2010, 05:26 AM
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I believe that technically they go on at the END of the healing time. (It is best to cast heal when you are not in the middle of combat.)
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Dahrken
post Sep 14 2010, 05:41 AM
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QUOTE (Pogo Pete @ Sep 14 2010, 03:03 AM) *
Probably a very noob question: when are the healing points actually applied? A character who gets healed for 5 boxes gets them:
a. All at once on the spellcasting turn and then it's a matter of sustaining the spell.
b. One box per turn that the spell is sustained.
c. All at once after the spell has been sustained for 5 turns.

What happens when the sustained heal spell is disrupted before the 5 turns are up?
a. Patient regains all 5 boxes of healed damage.
b. Patient regains the number of boxes equal to the number of turns left when the spell got disrupted.

It's not a noob question at all, the way the spell work is not really explained. The Duration paragraph just says that a Permanent spell must be sustained for a short time after which it's effect become "natural" and no longer requires magic or concentration to maintain, which does not really help us here, but suggest that if the spell is dropped prematurely, the healing unravels and you're not healed at all.

While I'd suggest "All at once after sustaining duration" and "If spell is interrupted, no healing is done", this is a point you should discuss at your table beforehand and define the way you will use.

Also the sustaining duration is not 1 turn for each box healed, but (Drainx2) turns, minus 1 for each net hit used to make the spell quicker rather than more powerful.

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Pogo Pete
post Sep 14 2010, 11:37 AM
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Thanks for your reply Dahrken.

QUOTE (Dahrken @ Sep 13 2010, 11:41 PM) *
Also the sustaining duration is not 1 turn for each box healed, but (Drainx2) turns, minus 1 for each net hit used to make the spell quicker rather than more powerful.


You mean just hits right, not net hits?

Tell me if I have this right. If the caster is attempting to heal 5 boxes of damage. She'll have to cast a force 5 spell and to be successfull needs 5 hits (not net hits).
This spell should have a Drain Value of: 2 (for force/2) + 3 (Damage Value -2) + 5 (for hits) = 10

Healing 5 boxes of damage then takes 20 combat turns?
Instead the caster can choose to use 4 hits, heal only 4 boxes of damage but for a reduced total of 19 turns, is that correct?

That doesn't make much sense to me. If she only wanted to heal 4 boxes, she could have cast a force 4 spell for a Drain Value of: 2 + 2 + 4 = 8 (=16 combat turns).

I must be reading something wrong.

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Dahrken
post Sep 14 2010, 12:47 PM
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Yes, I meant hits - since the roll is not opposed the notion of "net hits" is irrelevant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) .

If you use the optionnal rule where hits add extra Drain, then yes, this look utterly stupid. If not, it makes sense, you can choose to heall less but faster.

Also don't forget that the Drain of Heal is not based on the Force of the spell, but on the number of boxes of damage of the target.
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CeeJay
post Sep 14 2010, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (Pogo Pete @ Sep 14 2010, 01:37 PM) *
Tell me if I have this right. If the caster is attempting to heal 5 boxes of damage. She'll have to cast a force 5 spell and to be successfull needs 5 hits (not net hits).
This spell should have a Drain Value of: 2 (for force/2) + 3 (Damage Value -2) + 5 (for hits) = 10

Okay, looks like you've got something wrong here...

Let's see: You want to heal a person with 5 boxes of physical damage. The drain for this spell is than 3 (damage value 5 - 2 = 3). Therefore you will need to sustain the spell for 6 combat turn to make it permanent.
Note that the Heal spell is a big exception in that the force of the spell is no factor in drain calculation. I don't know why you add +5 (for hits) to the drain. IIRC that is an optional rule that is to be used exclusively with direct combat spells.
Also note that, if the target has 10 boxes of physical damage, the drain value would be 8 (damage value 10 - 2 = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) , even if you are still trying to heal 5 boxes of damage with a force 5 spell. Accordingly, you would need to sustain it for 16 combat turns to become permanent.
Although I know that a lot of people houserule heal drain to be calculated from the amount of damage that is tried to be healed and not the actual amount of damage the target has.

-CJ
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Neraph
post Sep 14 2010, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (CeeJay @ Sep 13 2010, 01:07 AM) *
By the way, you can even deny the primary target a dodge roll by targeting the patch of ground between his feet. The grenade attack roll is then treated as a success test.

I believe that in the FAQ it talks about this not working. You still choose one person and he tries to get out of the way.
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TommyTwoToes
post Sep 14 2010, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Sep 13 2010, 04:12 PM) *
There are optional rules for healing in Augmentation. Stuff like, rolling BOD instead of BODx2 for natural healing. Broken limbs and worse when getting a glitch or critical glitch when soaking damage or healing, etc. It adds to the "post-lethality" of the game, when you need to get back on your feet ASAP because any minute now whomever is after you will find you.

Yeah, the optional rules are OK, but really for "normal" people the existing rules and modifiers work fine. Its just when you add in the high body metas that the system starts to break down. And if you apply the optional rules to people with a body of 2-3, you start to see some real problems recovering from injuries.
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sabs
post Sep 14 2010, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Sep 14 2010, 07:13 PM) *
Yeah, the optional rules are OK, but really for "normal" people the existing rules and modifiers work fine. Its just when you add in the high body metas that the system starts to break down. And if you apply the optional rules to people with a body of 2-3, you start to see some real problems recovering from injuries.


Shouldn't those people be going to hospitals, or at least streetdocs with medical equipment that helps in the recovery process.

And Body 8+ Trolls are preternaturally tough and robust. They have what I call "rapid healing" effectively. It's not regen, but it's darn close.
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Yerameyahu
post Sep 14 2010, 08:18 PM
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No, Neraph. It specifically says it does work, as of course it logically would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE
Isn't tossing a grenade on the ground by someone's feet (a Success Test) easier than trying to hit them directly with a grenade (an Opposed Test)? Does everyone caught in the blast get a chance to dodge/react?

Yes. The reason it's easier to aim for a location is because it doesn't move. If the intent is to catch a mobile target in the blast radius, then it should be an Opposed Test, whether the grenade is actually thrown at the target or thrown a few meters away. Anyone in the blast radius has until the next IP to get out of the way.


So, one way to read this is that any mobile target has to be attacked with an Opposed Test; the way I read it is that you can certainly aim at a location (Success Test), but you can't say 'I aim at Thug-1 by throwing the grenade at the ground where he is'. Instead, you have to say, 'I aim at the middle of the room', and hope that you get him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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