[X] My Assistant

[Androcomputus]

The description for Jazz says it all...

Developed by Lone Star’s R&D Division, jazz was designed to
better the odds for run-of-the-mill law-enforcement officers who run
up against augmented street samurai...

It is printed in the book to give mooks a chance in a fight with the PCs.

[sabs]

And really, how often is a Mook going to run into a Shadowrunner in his life?
The Joke answer would be: Once.
But lets assume most shadowrunners don't shoot to kill, but use non-lethal options.

Your average street cop probably will run into a shadowrunner once, maybe twice a year.. tops. Possibly only a couple of times in his whole career.

[TommyTwoToes]

It depends on the military. A high-tech, professional US-style military would not; drugs are too expensive in terms of troop loss. If it's some poor African nation of conscripted child-soldiers, then the balance shifts, see? Personally, I wouldn't even call the latter 'military', so I disagree with sabs: military would not use drugs as presented in SR4, because they're too damaging, too fast.

I would think the the increased balkinization and general dystopia, that the "Somali warlord with a militia" is more common that what we think of as a traditional army. AK's and K-10 for everyone!

[StealthSigma]

Your average street cop probably will run into a shadowrunner once, maybe twice a year.. tops. Possibly only a couple of times in his whole career.

Your average street cop would most likely run into a shadowrunner once and then promptly die unless he's -really- lucky.

[Doc Chase]

Your average street cop would most likely run into a shadowrunner once and then promptly die unless he's -really- lucky.

That's why they issued their beat cops Jazz - so they'd slow down the runners until the real support got there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[sabs]

Your average street cop would most likely run into a shadowrunner once and then promptly die unless he's -really- lucky.

Did you read the /whole/ post?

[CanRay]

Your average street cop probably will run into a shadowrunner once, maybe twice a year.. tops. Possibly only a couple of times in his whole career.

Unless a Shadowrunner has him for a contact, that is. It's a good way to augment the crappy pay cops get, as well as get some word from the street.

[sabs]

Unless a Shadowrunner has him for a contact, that is. It's a good way to augment the crappy pay cops get, as well as get some word from the street.

One Imagines that if you are a Shadowrunner's contact.. he's probably not shooting at you? More than Once (Edited for CanRay)

[CanRay]

Unless that's how they met. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

"He shot me. But only a little. We've been friends since."

[jaellot]

I notice the tendency, too. Never have I had a player in my games want to use any of the drugs. My buddy goes on about an old character who had Kamikaze, I think,l in an autoinjector, but he hasn't done it in my campaigns. I think as a result, I tend to forget about them in the books, though I'm trying to bring more of that into the game.

Might also have something to do with an NPC I got called "Chppy". He's a BTL burnout whose brain is very fried, but his wires and smartlink work just fine. Sort of a sign of where drugs can take you. Some of the PC's pity him and try to keep him fed, one of them is looking for an excuse to put him out of everyone's misery...

Reliablity has been mentioned as an issue. I can see that. I can see how players would prefer ware over drugs, mechanics wise. For interesting RP though, drugs could be appealing. Maybe if the ware wasn't so infalliable (damaged from glitches, old/used, home brewed or old SR2 damage charts...) you might could interest PC's more in some pills or what not.

And oh yeah, "laughter back in slaughter..." good one.

[KarmaInferno]

So, nobody has a page reference for how someone progresses in their addiction? Like going from Mild to Severe?

Or is it just one of those things a GM is supposed to make up on the fly?



-karma

[Nifft]

So, nobody has a page reference for how someone progresses in their addiction? Like going from Mild to Severe?

Or is it just one of those things a GM is supposed to make up on the fly?

SR4A, p.256, "Addiction Tests". It's the FIRST page of the Drugs & Brainbenders section, not exactly hard to find.

[KarmaInferno]

Ah, okay, I was reading those tests to be for how you GET an addiction, not as also how you determine if the addiction gets worse.

Also, the Addiction rules work oddly with the Media Junkie addiction.


-karma

[Whipstitch]

Some day I'll figure out how so many GMs and players see this:

Addiction Tests should not be called for each time a character uses a drug (unless it’s something that is powerfully addictive), but should only be used after repeated/habitual use, a particularly brutal bender, or exposure to strong concentrations of the drug in a short period of time.

And translate it out to thinking 3 hits in a week of practically anything and you're addicted. I mean, good lord, haven't any of these people taken drugs or painkillers before? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Most of the drugs *are* powerfully addictive. The ones you'd want for combat, anyway.

[TommyTwoToes]

Most of the drugs *are* powerfully addictive. The ones you'd want for combat, anyway.

Hey, they have warning labels. And your dealer is supposed to check your ID to verify that you are of the legal age to take that stuff.
There is no way that the corps can be responsible, just because some of you proles can't handle the juice.

[Nifft]

Ah, okay, I was reading those tests to be for how you GET an addiction, not as also how you determine if the addiction gets worse.

Also, the Addiction rules work oddly with the Media Junkie addiction.

Yeah, they pretty much give NO strict guidance on when to actually USE that test, except that the less often you call for it = the more you can expect drug use in your game.

It's not the best supported mechanic in the game.

The way I use addiction is "hey kid, want some build points?"... and then I don't really bother with it. My players don't much care for drugs once they can afford another source of IPs.

[Neurosis]

First off a big hello to you all out there, this is my first post to these fine forums and I hope it might actually contribute something, or at least sow the seeds of an idea amongst other players. At the least I might get a good discussion out of it. Now, onto the meat of the post!

I've been ghosting these forums for a while, and I'll be the first to admit that I've spent more than my fair share of time looking at peoples characters ideas and first time Game Masters issues. And through all of these threads, where Initiative Passes have been touted (And not incorrectly) as the one way to make the most out of your character, I have ever only ever seen people arguing for Wired Reflexes, or their bioware/adept counterpart. However not once have I seen a mention of the application of Combat drugs, and while the effects are temporary, they can also provide a much needed boost against tougher opponents than these less mundane options might.

Now I'm not going to pretend I'm not bias, because I most certainly am. As a player, I have a tendency to romanticize the less cybered or magical characters. I mean the only cyberware my character packs is Muscle Replacement (2), and I can mix it up with the best of any street sam or adept I've come across, and with my combat ax I usually come out on top and dealing damage that makes others either weep or drool. (Providing I don't shank any rolls Haha) And here's why. I use drugs! But what about the crash you say? The horrible stun damage that leaves me passed out in between a rock and a hard place. Well granted, that can be a problem, but is 6stun really all that much? Besides take Jazz for example, it's crash is only 10 minutes game time of -2 to tests. Not a bad price to pay for 10-60 minutes of +1 initiative, and +1 initiative passes. Then you have my personal ace in the hole. Kamikaze. Let's face it, almost everyone going's to get into a position every now and then when you need an equalizer, and just one initiative pass isn't enough. Can you afford to turn down it's +1 Body, agility, Willpower, Initiative Pass, +2 strength and High Pain Tolerance three when you're just about to go toe to toe with a Red Samurai or two and they don't plan to let you stand there and shoot them?

Get screwed over by a Johnson and you're in a situation that you don't expect to come out alive? Well if you want any chance to get out, or you at least want to take as many of those fraggers out with you as you can, try a little K10. Sure the crash is crazy and will probably kill you if the combat doesn't but there are ways to offset that too. Try cocktailing it with a little Immortal Flower. Nothing puts the laughter back into slaughter like +3 Body, +3 Agility, +6 Strength, +1 Willpower,+3 Initiative Pass, High Pain Tolerance 3, and Berserk topped off with a little Regeneration.

Now don't get me wrong, this isn't for everyone, but it just feels to me like no one really gives combat drugs serious consideration as an alternative to a heavily wared or wizzed char. Not everyone can can get the ware or spell/power. Any one can take a hit.

My current PC makes tremendous use of Combat Drugs in a professional capacity while attempting to stave off addiction and eventual burnout. A combat drug is an excellent equalizer if you are an Adept and you happen to be losing several points of your Magic (and therefore power points) to Background Count. This is what kept my PC alive whenever I was not operating at full magic score. Taking Kamikaze while on Cram is also what gave me the equalizer to fight ridiculously overpowered dudes by upping my IP from my usual 2 to 4. Essentially, that is how combat drugs function best: as an equalizer.

As a GM, I "gave" my fairly underpowered PCs each a dose of Kamikaze for a plot climactic run to assassinate two Renraku VIPs protected by an essentially platoon-strength group of Red Samurai. As it stands they didn't survive, not really, but they did complete their objective. If not for the Kamikaze, they wouldn't have gotten close to doing either. An equalizer, like I said. Nothing that any PC should be making a habit of. Drugs are just less...professional.

Immortal Flower is very ridiculous but it is best for Awakened characters (Magic + Body) for whom it has incredibly negative long-term consequences. Our mage 0.1 Essence (and therefore 1 Magic!) to it recently. Ouch! Also its price and availability make it a BAD thing to be addicted to.

I have a question about combat drugs, actually. If you take a combat drug and then cast Critter Form on yourself, does your Critter Form benefit from the drugs, or not? Is it spelled out in RAW?

[Yerameyahu]

Do the +IPs really stack?

[Neurosis]

Afaik it says nowhere that they wouldn't and it seems balanced.

The unresisted 6S certainly stacks when they both (independently) run out to 12S...guaranteed unconsciousness and quite possible death depending on how messed up you are from the run itself.

Taking the more serious combat drugs is a very risky business.

[Nifft]

Do the +IPs really stack?

Extra IPs never stack.
Bonuses of any kind never stack (unless they say they do, like with Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes).

Technically, IPs could stack if the source material said they stacked, but it never does (that I've seen).

[Neurosis]

@Nifft....if you are right then oh boy have I been doing a LOT of things wrong.

Can I have a page reference for where it says categorically in the rules that "bonuses of any kind never stack"?

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I thought, Nifft. This issue comes up every time people talk about Drugs in SR4. I've seen people say that the drugs stack *with* Wires!

[Nifft]

@Nifft....if you are right then oh boy have I been doing a LOT of things wrong.

Can I have a page reference for where it says categorically in the rules that "bonuses of any kind never stack"?

Nope, because I can't find one. So I'm probably wrong there.

Instead, it looks like each form of IP enhancement (Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Boosters, etc.) has wording which says it doesn't work with any other form of IP enhancement.

Cheers, -- N

[Neurosis]

But Improved Reflexes (Adept Power) says that it "cannot be combined with technological or other magical increases to Initiative" which certainly doesn't cover combat drugs. Likewise the drugs themselves don't say anywhere that they don't stack with anything.

So as far as I can tell the example I listed "happens" to be totally legal according to RAW.

But "You can't cast Increase Reflexes on someone with Wired Reflexes" is a totally new one on me and one I will have to think about.