Mundanes vs. Spirits, Killing spooks without SnS Options

[Whipstitch]

Actually, with the Street Magic rules there is a Metal elemental effect category, it just doesn't come up very often given that it is so analogous with flechette and shrapnel, nor does it halve Impact armor (although it does have a heightened DV). Given the presence of wacky spells like Firewater I don't personally have much of a problem making a distinction between "magic" shrapnel and the mundane stuff from a grenade, either, so giving Earth spirits immunity to Sand and Metal spell effect damage wouldn't bother me thematically. Still, immunity to such spell effects would be just a fluff bonus most of the time since I wouldn't expect many magicians to keep such spells on hand in the first place. I'd probably go with weak to Acids (Rarely weaponized in my games to begin with, which is nice) and immune to Metal and Sand spells along with a bonus to resist knockdowns, a trait that isn't entirely useless on low Force spirits.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, neat. Thanks for that heads up on Metal, Whipstitch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I assumed earth spirits were only immune to Hard Rock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

some stone dissolve very rapidly in acid wile other stone is highly resistant to it. It forget but I think it has to do with having iron oxide in the stone or not. So sedimentary rocks like sand stone often are dissolved but igneous stones are not.
(Some not very well done video of dissolving different types of rock.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB5wTbdfOxs

[Yerameyahu]

Ack, real-life science and logic! It burnss ussss! It burnss uss like ridiculous 'weaponized acid' in every game ever!

[Badmoodguy88]

Well if you ever come up across a totally sand stone castle throwing acid at it would work in real life and fast too. It is eating at what binds the sand and pebbles together. But that is about the only thing it is good for fast dissolving.

Formic acid is another cool acid. It is know for being able to dissolve glass (though no quickly) but it is a very deadly contact poison that is absorbed through the skin.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, honestly, the reason why I suggest weak to acid has more to do with keeping the "rock, paper, scissors" game alive than it does with chemistry or logic. One could also make an argument that if you're really serious about assigning allergies then what spirits are weak against should be determined by the tradition as much as anything else. Unfortunately, that would require more work on the GM's part as well as a bit of guesswork on the part of NPCs and players when trying to pinpoint what would harm a given spirit. For example, if you go by the Wu Xing's Destructive Cycle as an inspiration it's Wood that destroys Earth, but such things are hardly common knowledge. Plus, wood is obviously a pretty common material and it seems perhaps a bit unfair to Earth Spirits, which are frankly already rather unpopular from a pure power gaming perspective. Living wood would be an interesting alternative-- breaking a potted plant over an Earth spirit and watching it overgrow the poor bastard would be ace.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, the Shen/Ko cycles are a more flexible and satisfying elemental system, but what can you do? *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

On the one hand it's cute if spirits follow the elemental rock paper scizzors of their own tradition. But indeed, it's a burden to the GM.

Then again, how many traditions will you usually face? Shamanic, Hermetic, Wuxing and maybe 3 others? Just enough to make that Arcana or Knowledge: Spirit Weaknesses skills valuable. The GM could just fill in the obscure traditions by the time somebody plays them. It'd be a way to emphasize the differences between the traditions.

[Digital Heroin]

Unless you consider metal to be included in "Earth" as an element, in which case it can get petty nasty with bullets.

I'm no phsyicistiologist, but I reckon it's not so much the metal in bullets that do the damage, so much as the kinetic impact. And when in doubt, break out the beef or ice bullets...

...thank you CSI.

[Neraph]

Metal's not an element in SR4

It is in Street Magic.

EDIT: Aaak, I was a bit late on that one.

[Neraph]

I was under the impression drugs don't work on spirits. Because they can not receive first aid. But if drugs do work then they should be able to take combat drugs and use slap patches. Both work on everything else under the sun except drones.

Spirits can eat food and excrete waste, but they get no sustenance from it.

I think a poison spell should work but normal poison should not, or be subjected to ITNW. But if not then beneficial drugs should work.

If they did not have ITNW for poisons then the sure fire way to kill any spirit is nerve gas or just knock out gas to disrupt them. Kind of lame.

1) Where's the rule that says they can't accept slap patches and combat drugs? Accepting First Aid is gaining healing effects from the skill.

2) ItNW is specifically against Damage Resistance Tests (indirectly) - Immunity (Toxins) is for toxins, and Spirits do not have it.

[Megu]

Then again, how many traditions will you usually face? Shamanic, Hermetic, Wuxing and maybe 3 others? Just enough to make that Arcana or Knowledge: Spirit Weaknesses skills valuable. The GM could just fill in the obscure traditions by the time somebody plays them. It'd be a way to emphasize the differences between the traditions.

I'm not sure. My games it was pretty much a different tradition each time. Although the Norse tradition and our homebrew Hmong tradition both got a hell of a workout, the people they were fighting, well, I remember everything from Shinto to Cree magicians coming up.

[Irion]

@Neraph
Well, it is said, that they do not have bodys. So actually poison is unable to affect them.
What should nerve gas do, if there are no nervs.

A car does also not have an immunity to poison. Should therefor VX blow up tanks?

As a matter of fact spirits are quite funny things. If they are able to function as a toster, they should be able to have a Form, which is immun to electricity....

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, it is said, that they do not have bodys.

If they materialize the have bodies, or how would they be able to slap you?

A car does also not have an immunity to poison. Should therefor VX blow up tanks?

Of course it shouldn't but a) tanks are not alive b) we know how tanks are supposed to work IRL, we don't know how spirits are supposed to work IRL because there aren't any. So we can only use whatever is in the book. Since there is immunity to toxins and Spirits don't have it, logically they can't be immune.

As a matter of fact spirits are quite funny things. If they are able to function as a toster, they should be able to have a Form, which is immun to electricity....

Even if a spirit looks like a toaster and works like one, it shouldn't be immune to electricity. Real toasters aren't immune to electricity. If enough current goes through the wires they will fry.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't get him started, Irion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[tagz]

@Neraph
Well, it is said, that they do not have bodys. So actually poison is unable to affect them.
What should nerve gas do, if there are no nervs.

A car does also not have an immunity to poison. Should therefor VX blow up tanks?

As a matter of fact spirits are quite funny things. If they are able to function as a toster, they should be able to have a Form, which is immun to electricity....

I'm not going to say anything about the vehicles and toxins... that is something they messed up on.


However, the whole thing about spirits and "no bodies", "no nervous systems", etc to justify them not taking various forms of damage and other in game effects...

I'm assuming you're speaking of SM p 90, The Nature Of Spirits to gleam this information. It should be noted that this is in fact NOT RAW. It is however canon fluff. You can tell this because the passage in question is "In Character Speech", written by one Prof. Leonard Montenegro and posted by the Jackpoint user Ethernaut who even proceeds it with the statement that it isn't even 100% trustworthy. This is clearly not a rule section of the book, so therefor not RAW, but a good source of fluff.

If we start taking any in character sections and applying it to mechanics nothing stops me from say using UW p30:

"Well, there's public opinion and there's fact. Hackers today need to be more then just brains. You can't hide in a basement and do overwatch anymore. IC or a bad biofeedback filter used to be the worst thing a hacker came up against. Now, a hacker who doesn't know how to handle themselves in a fight - or at least how to duck - isn't going to last through the first run."
*Glitch

Imagine the mayhem if I took the parts I liked as RAW just cause it was in the book. "Oh, hacker... first fight is over and I don't see a rank in a combat skill or dodge skill. Well, the last line here clearly says you die. Too bad. Roll a new character."

Not saying that if your game want's to treat toxins and elementals or whatever as ineffectual towards spirits that you can't or shouldn't, just that it's all based on fluff and not RAW.

[Mordinvan]

Well if you ever come up across a totally sand stone castle throwing acid at it would work in real life and fast too. It is eating at what binds the sand and pebbles together. But that is about the only thing it is good for fast dissolving.

Formic acid is another cool acid. It is know for being able to dissolve glass (though no quickly) but it is a very deadly contact poison that is absorbed through the skin.

I think you mean Hydrofloric acid, as formic acid is used by ants.

[Mordinvan]

2) ItNW is specifically against Damage Resistance Tests (indirectly) - Immunity (Toxins) is for toxins, and Spirits do not have it.

Neither do cars.

[Karoline]

Neither do cars.

Cars are also not specifically unaffected by drugs. Let the Jazz Car be born! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

HF is the one that dissolves glass and is a contact poison, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Still, maybe *formic acid* could be made by a chem gland, and then you'd be Ant Man!

[phlapjack77]

Cars are also not specifically unaffected by drugs. Let the Jazz Car be born! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Cars have armor though, so you'd have to put the drug / toxin in a DMSO solution to affect them?

[Yerameyahu]

Does DMSO say it goes through vehicle armor? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Two can play at the 'there's no rule!' game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[phlapjack77]

Does DMSO say it goes through vehicle armor? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Two can play at the 'there's no rule!' game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

DMSO doesn't specifically say it DOESN'T go through vehicle armor, so...

Maybe the drug has to hit the engine, or "heart", of the vehicle or something to affect it

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It says it goes through the skin, though, as an exclusive function. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hehe.

OOH! How about this:

Dosages for toxins vary considerably from substance to substance, and prices and descriptions given are for a standard dose effective against most metahuman physiology.

God knows how big the dose for a car is. ;D

[phlapjack77]

It says it goes through the skin, though, as an exclusive function. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hehe.

OOH! How about this:

It doesn't specifically say it CAN'T affect vehicles, just that the given prices and descriptions are for doses to affect metahumans. OBVIOUSLY the prices and dosage would have to be much higher to affect a vehicle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

*edit* dang, your edit ninja skills were faster than mine. Need more cyber...