Mundanes vs. Spirits, Killing spooks without SnS Options

[X-Kalibur]

I still think that the +DV from Burst and Full auto should count for penetrating armor.

The bullets are hitting with the same force, there are simply more of them.

[Dakka Dakka]

Don't forget shotguns. They're at 7P -1 for normal slugs (8P -2 for ExEx slugs, 7P -5 for APDS) or 9P(f) with a logical AP of +4 but the book states +5. Not too bad either.

[kzt]

Restricting them to shot guns would be better, as we actually have tazer shells now.

The problem is that tasers work by having little darts the stick so they can carry the electrical charge. The little darts don't stick to something that is essentially the side of an armored car. So logically they shouldn't work. ...

We never used the SnS or Tasers, we shot the crap out of them with alphas with APDS and HE grenades, with AT rockets occasionally. But generally we just had to delay them until the mage stunbolted them away.

[X-Kalibur]

That +5 applies though, to my knowledge, and may be more of a hinderance, I did forget shotguns though, you are correct.

[sabs]

Amusingly a Troll with a Combat Axe, has a much better shot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
He's doing 10DV + net hits. Sadly of course, he has to hit. But (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Megu]

I would 'fix' attack of will by making it Willpower + Relevant Close Combat Skill. Damage is still equal to Charisma, probably. I would also state that drug and technology based modifiers to EITHER attribute or the skill do not apply. Your Pheromones do not give you extra damage boxes, being on kamikaze doesn't make it easier to banish a spirit, and your Reflex Recorder does not come into play. Only your martial skill and your determination matter.

Since afaik attack of will is defended against with the spirit's Reaction + Unarmed Combat just like a physical attack, I see no reason weapon reach (and for that matter troll reach) shouldn't come into the equation.

If I was going to house rule it, that is how I would house rule it.

Mechanics wise that's probably a good fit, but honestly I think the big thematic/aesthetic appeal of the Attacks of Will as a concept, at least for me, is that it's fundamentally not about physical force or combat skill, but deeply connects with what the characters are feeling at that point. I kind of like the idea of, say, after the hostile spirit mows down the chromed bodyguard, the little corpgirl protecting her baby brother puts all of her will into protecting him and disbands it with a punch. I mean, fortunately SR already has a mechanic to manage that sort of extra effort when it really counts, Edge. Anyways, it'd make it harder to have scenes or plots involving that sort of thing with an AoW dependent on mundane combat abilities.

[Dakka Dakka]

The problem is that tasers work by having little darts the stick so they can carry the electrical charge. The little darts don't stick to something that is essentially the side of an armored car. So logically they shouldn't work. ...

ItNW is not armor it only works similarly to armor in the game mechanics. So I'm not sure if your statement applies to spirits, especially given the great variety of looks spirits can have.

That +5 applies though, to my knowledge, and may be more of a hinderance, I did forget shotguns though, you are correct.

The +2 DV more than compensate it. You have a higher chance of forcing the spirit to roll damage resistance and the Net damage should also be 1/3 higher on average.

[Whipstitch]

I still don't understand the problem. Are there a large preponderance of street level games where the PCs run around with stock pistols and regular ammo?

Yes. I eventually resorted to folding Firearms back into a single skill again just to get people to quit using Arsenal to just pick one weapon and tweak it so it's good for every situation again. Typically that weapon was an Automatic of some sort.

Anyway, the hyperbole of a starting mage dropping a spirit that could take out a tank column made me smirk a bit given the shenanigans a legit rigger can do with a solid weapons array.

[X-Kalibur]

The +2 DV more than compensate it. You have a higher chance of forcing the spirit to roll damage resistance and the Net damage should also be 1/3 higher on average.

Or rather, it would, except your DV must ~exceed~ their armor value. AP counts. In fact, your chances are worse.

Example, same F6 spirit.

Shotgun w/normal slug is 7P -1. You need 4 hits.

Shotgun w/Flechette is 9P +4(logically). You now need 7 hits. As the +4 pushes their armor to 16. In most cases the +2/+5 is a fair tradeoff, until you get to the ass backwardness of SR4 ItNW.

[X-Kalibur]

Yes. I eventually resorted to folding Firearms back into a single skill again just to get people to quit using Arsenal to just pick one weapon and tweak it so it's good for every situation again. Typically that weapon was an Automatic of some sort.

Anyway, the hyperbole of a starting mage dropping a spirit that could take out a tank column made me smirk a bit given the shenanigans a legit rigger can do with a solid weapons array.

Not if he has 15 KE on Dodge Scoots in pursuit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Just saying, a Citymaster with a water cannon will be harming any Force 8 Spirit it can hit by default and it's treated as a fully automatic weapon, so you can use wide bursts to try netting a whole mess of net hits and thus have a good shot at harming even higher force spirits or you can go narrow and really hose weaker spirits down.

[Yerameyahu]

Incidentally, I thought S&S used adhesive. I think this same 'issue' has been raise in each of the million S&S threads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Just saying, a Citymaster with a water cannon will be harming any Force 8 Spirit it can hit by default and it's treated as a fully automatic weapon, so you can use wide bursts to try netting a whole mess of net hits and thus have a good shot at harming even higher force spirits or you can go narrow and really hose weaker spirits down.

Again, you're assuming optimum conditions for the runners, which happens approximately...never. Most of your spirit combat will be on corp property. Which is where most of the comparisons start breaking. Although I'm surprised no one mentioned using the murder cycle yet.

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, I'd assume the Citymaster/Water Cannon setup is a suggestion for corps to use *against* runners' spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Whipstitch]

What he said. The only thing I've assumed here is that starting runner level spirits will have a hard time with a tank column in the vast majority of games. There's outlier possession builds with buff subjects that can get up to some shenanigans but as a general rule Spirits aren't trouncing on vehicles to the extent that was implied earlier since both types benefit from what essentially amounts to hardened armor. Spirits are generally just a symptom of how poorly damage and armor scales in this game beyond a certain point really-- The system plays fast and feels pretty alright at the lower end but frays a bit around the edges the farther you have to stretch it to incorporate bigger and badder subjects. Spirits just happen to exacerbate the situation since it's easier to fit one in an office building than a Citymaster.

[Tyro]

OP here. I run with F * 1.5 (rounded up) auto-hits which also counts as regular armor. I intensely dislike the hardened armor concept applying to spirits. I also allow burst fire to work normally, for reasons which should be obvious. So considering those rules, maybe removing SnS won't unbalance things. I still want to fix attacks of will, though; Will + relevant Close Combat skill works for me. Also, any suggestions for fixing Banishing? As written it's SO much better to just Stunbolt, unless you really really want to Pokéball the sucker.

[X-Kalibur]

Banishing works rather in a reverse fashion. A higher force spirit will in some ways be easier to simply banish by virtue of it likely having a relatively small number of services. While stunbolting is attractive still, if the mage is within LOS of the spirit remember that it will get its own (potentially) absurd WIL + counterspell, while banishing is your MAG + Banish vs F (or + MAG of caster if bound... hope not) where your hits decrease services (and at 0 the spirit goes poof)

[tagz]

In my game all spirits have listed Allergies, but they also have another Allergy quality that is particular to the tradition that summoned them.

For instance, Hermetic spirits are allergic to silver and Shamanistic spirits are Allergic to bone.

The materials should be something that isn't exactly commonplace but not that hard to get a hold of. The whole idea is to make doing some research and legwork really pay off when it comes to spirits.

[kzt]

Incidentally, I thought S&S used adhesive. I think this same 'issue' has been raise in each of the million S&S threads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Probably. But anyhow, how do you glue a SnS round to something that is living fire? And really hot fire, based on the energy aura damage.

[Yerameyahu]

Make up your mind: "The little darts don't stick to something that is essentially the side of an armored car." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Probably. But anyhow, how do you glue a SnS round to something that is living fire? And really hot fire, based on the energy aura damage.

Fire spirits are not made of fire they are made of mana that possibly looks like fire and have the Fire Aura. That aura does not damage projectiles by RAW. Also there is no mention that SnS need to stay attached to continue to work. Even if the projectile needed to resist the damage of passing through the aura, it is a question of is the aura able to destroy the projectile before it reaches its target. Another point is that if the energy aura worked that way all creatures having it would be a lot more resilient as any attacking device, be it bullet or melee weapon, would possibly be destroyed before even reaching the spirit and checking for ItNW.

[Yerameyahu]

It's a flat mistake to try and use 'realism' or 'logic' in adjudicating these rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

It's a flat mistake to try and use 'realism' or 'logic' in adjudicating these rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree that applying realism to a gameworld that includes magic is a fool's errand, but you can't leave out logic.

[Yerameyahu]

Not logic, 'logic'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) With scare-quotes. As in, 'S&S clearly can't work, because he's made of fire, duh!' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Logic says that they work, because the book doesn't say they don't.

[Dakka Dakka]

OK