Mundanes vs. Spirits, Killing spooks without SnS Options

[kzt]

It's a flat mistake to try and use 'realism' or 'logic' in adjudicating these rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There is a lot of truth to that, but if the rules actually had been playtested, and didn't leave huge areas that required interpretation of what the writer was trying to say it would be a lot easier to do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mäx]

Spirits should be an assistance to a mage, not a force than can single-handedly destroy a tank column that a starting mage can manage.

What force are your starting mages summoning, that can go face to face with even a single tank.
Firelance vehicle laser frys anythink up to force 12(max uniniated mage can summon)
Light gaus cannon kills spirits up to force 22.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, kzt. What I'm saying is that we can justify nearly anything if we allow ourselves to make up the reasons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I certainly agree that balance is the ideal, and that vague or patchy rules are a huge frustration.

[Neraph]

*cough cough* I can have a starting character summon a F28 spirit... some of the time.

Since spirit's aren't immune to toxins, how about some Narcoject? That 10 stun is a quick way to disrupt spirits. As is Slab. Or what about using Pixie Dust so that the spirits forget what tasks they're on?

[Mäx]

*cough cough* I can have a starting character summon a F28 spirit... some of the time.

Ofcource you can, but i doupt his players can.
And most of the time you die if you try that, avarage 18P drain hurt a lot and thats with out the spirit using edge(and at that force it really should)
with edge to reroll failures, the avarage drain rises to 30P. with really bad luck the drain can be 56P
Also could you tell me how you get your summoning pool to 30+ dice, so you have a chance to actually get a servise out of that spirit.

[The Jopp]

Since spirit's aren't immune to toxins, how about some Narcoject? That 10 stun is a quick way to disrupt spirits. As is Slab. Or what about using Pixie Dust so that the spirits forget what tasks they're on?

RAW aside since they dont have a biological body or a working cardivascular system or nervous system they would just ignore said drug.

Not to mention getting a dartguns damage code through their immunity to normal weapons...

[Sengir]

*cough cough* I can have a starting character summon a F28 spirit... some of the time.

Sure, that's just a practical application of the Infinite Monkey Theorem.
A naked character with just two soaking dice (one body and one edge) also can fully absorb the damage of a long narrow burst from a heavy gauss...some of the time. The chance of rolling a gazillion 6s one after another is greater than 0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tyro]

Make up your mind: "The little darts don't stick to something that is essentially the side of an armored car." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Either way, they don't stick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Neurosis]

If we can put out an oil well fire by setting off a bomb next to it, I don't see why we can't disrupt a fire spirit with a thermobaric kablooey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Explosions maybe but I don't care what RAW says, so long as I have my druthers in ANY game where somebody casts a fire spell on a fire elemental it doesn't goddamn work.

[The Jopp]

Explosions maybe but I don't care what RAW says, so long as I have my druthers in ANY game where somebody casts a fire spell on a fire elemental it doesn't goddamn work.

I would allow the damage of a fiery explosion but the Elemental Effect of Fire would be ignored and be classified as a mundane weapon.

After all, the explosive Blast can still damage it but not the actual firestorm.

End result, it would still have immunity to it.

[DireRadiant]

Spirits have DV boxes. Stuff does DV damage. Spirits get hurt by stuff.

[Dakka Dakka]

Spirits have DV boxes. Stuff does DV damage. Spirits get hurt by stuff.

QFT

Fire spirits are not immune to fire. Even if they were (as per rules), a big enough fire would still burn them. They are even doubly vulnerable to fire spells, since this is magical damage. There is no rule that elemental spells cease to be spells versus ItNW.

As a houserule you can do whatever is fun for your group.

[Yerameyahu]

Ooh! You could go all Final Fantasy: fire heals them, water and ice do double, something I forget does zero… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Don't forget that Atma ignores all armor.

[X-Kalibur]

Most of the time there was no water element in FF games. It was Fire(Fira,Firaga, Firaja) heals, Blizzard(Blizzara, Blizzaga, Blizzaja) does double damage and Thunder (Thundara, Thundaga, Thundaja) deal normal damage. Water spells were usually listed under Blue magic in games that had it... I play too many damn games.

[Neraph]

RAW aside since they dont have a biological body or a working cardivascular system or nervous system they would just ignore said drug.

Not to mention getting a dartguns damage code through their immunity to normal weapons...

1) You saying "RAW aside" invalidated your post from a RAW perspective, and when you ask for help with the rules of a game, you should be expecting people to argue from RAW. As a houserule, you're right though.

2) I said nothing about dartguns. There's also capsule rounds and the Super Squirt, both of which only require you to hit the target, not actually do damage.

[Yerameyahu]

As always, it's Narcoject + DMSO, of course. The contradictory dart guns are an issue for the Broken Rules thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Machiavelli]

Explosions maybe but I don't care what RAW says, so long as I have my druthers in ANY game where somebody casts a fire spell on a fire elemental it doesn't goddamn work.

Halleluja....AMEN brother, AMEN...

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

But why, exactly?
A fire elemental is made of the exact same material as an earth elemental, or an air elemental, or a water elemental, or a spirit of man, or a plant spirit, ad nauseum.

Unless that fire elemental has some innate defense against fire, which, by RAW, they don't.
(Now, whether they should is a different question altogether...but giving just them fire immunity probably makes them too good. Which rapidly turns into Dumpshock's favorite debate topic: "Magic is too powerful because I don't use the rules, therefore it should be weakened across the board!")

[Yerameyahu]

Eh, it'd probably be okay to give elemental spirits their relevant elemental immunity. God knows they're not Beast or Guardian spirits, poor things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It would help fire spirits more than earth spirits, of course. *shrug* As with all house rules, do what works for your group.

[Ascalaphus]

Eh, it'd probably be okay to give elemental spirits their relevant elemental immunity. God knows they're not Beast or Guardian spirits, poor things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It would help fire spirits more than earth spirits, of course. *shrug* As with all house rules, do what works for your group.

Unless you consider metal to be included in "Earth" as an element, in which case it can get petty nasty with bullets.

[Yerameyahu]

Haha, oh god. Obviously, that's not the case, but that is indeed a scary thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think we're talking about elemental magic, though.

[Mäx]

Haha, oh god. Obviously, that's not the case, but that is indeed a scary thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think we're talking about elemental magic, though.

Well only options for elemental magic type immunities for an earth elemental are metal or acid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Right; like I said, they get screwed compared to fire spirits under this hypothetical house rule. Metal's not an element in SR4, and acid should be 'super-effective!' against earth spirits, if anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Megu]

I been thinking about the Attacks of Will thing some more. How does a base of Willpower + Edge sound? Is that too strong, especially with Banishing in the mix?

[Badmoodguy88]

I was under the impression drugs don't work on spirits. Because they can not receive first aid. But if drugs do work then they should be able to take combat drugs and use slap patches. Both work on everything else under the sun except drones.

Spirits can eat food and excrete waste, but they get no sustenance from it.

I think a poison spell should work but normal poison should not, or be subjected to ITNW. But if not then beneficial drugs should work.

If they did not have ITNW for poisons then the sure fire way to kill any spirit is nerve gas or just knock out gas to disrupt them. Kind of lame.