Is the 20 Die Cap before or after penalties? Options

[jakephillips]

I was wondering about the optional 20 die cap for skill checks. Is it before penalties or after.
For example if you have a Melee full defense with a physical adept who rolls 9 for reaction, Melee 6 specialization 2, Dodge 5 specialized in melee +2 and weapon focus 3 for a total of =27 dice. So if the adept in questions has 9 boxes of stun and 9 boxes of physical damage for -6 wound penalties does he roll 20 dice -4 for a total of 14 dice or 20 dice 27-6 =21 which is reduced to 20 by the cap.
So which is it?

[djinni]

I was wondering about the optional 20 die cap for skill checks. Is it before penalties or after.
For example if you have a Melee full defense with a physical adept who rolls 9 for reaction, Melee 6 specialization 2, Dodge 5 specialized in melee +2 and weapon focus 3 for a total of =27 dice. So if the adept in questions has 9 boxes of stun and 9 boxes of physical damage for -6 wound penalties does he roll 20 dice -6 for a total of 14 dice or 20 dice 27-6 =21 which is reduced to 20 by the cap.
So which is it?

the rule used for the 20 die cap is the maximum amount of dice you physically roll.
after modifiers
in your example he'd roll 20 dice

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was wondering about the optional 20 die cap for skill checks. Is it before penalties or after.
For example if you have a Melee full defense with a physical adept who rolls 9 for reaction, Melee 6 specialization 2, Dodge 5 specialized in melee +2 and weapon focus 3 for a total of =27 dice. So if the adept in questions has 9 boxes of stun and 9 boxes of physical damage for -6 wound penalties does he roll 20 dice -4 for a total of 14 dice or 20 dice 27-6 =21 which is reduced to 20 by the cap.
So which is it?

I would assume tha tit is after all dice pool modifiers have been applied... if you are still over 20 dice, reduce to 20... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

As it pointed out to me, the total dice cap optional rule for any one roll is 20 dice OR double the Attribute+Skill, whichever is higher.






-karma

[Yerameyahu]

So, getting tremendous DPs can still allow you to do amazing things: 'ignore' wound penalties, visibility, lack of tools, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I guess groups can decide for themselves whether that's awesome or terrible.

[Fringe]

As it pointed out to me, the total dice cap optional rule for any one roll is 20 dice OR double the Attribute+Skill, whichever is higher.

-karma

From SR4A, p. 61:

Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher.

And this is the rule used in Missions (from the NYC Missions FAQ).

So the dice pool is after modifiers, but the 2x(Attribute+Skill) doesn't include any enhancements. So to have a dice pool > 20, you'd have to have Attribute+Skill > 10 without factoring in cyber/bioware, magic, emotitoy, software, or any other goodness. That's probably why people usually just remember the "20 dice" part of the cap.

[KarmaInferno]

Well, very, very few things actually increase the actual skill rating, most add dice pool modifiers.

But your point about natural attribute is well noted.

In the case of Defense rolls, though, it's sometimes attribute+skill+skill, so the "double" part comes into play much more often then usual.

In the original example, if the character has a "natural" Reaction of 6, his dice pool for figuring out his pool maximums is 17, doubled to 34. Since this is higher than 20, 34 is his max dice pool.

He only actually has a normal total of 7 in Dice Pool Modifiers. 4 in specializations, 3 in the Weapon Focus.

He is suffering a -6 Dice Pool Modifiers from wounds, resulting in a total net Dice Pool Modifier of 1.

Reaction 6 (9) + Melee 6 + Dodge 5 + two specializations + weapon focus + wound penalties results in a final dice pool of 21, which is far below his max Defense dice pool of 34.

As I said, this oddity really only comes into play for defense tests, as most other tests only have one skill in the mix.


-karma

[Dakka Dakka]

For example if you have a Melee full defense with a physical adept who rolls 9 for reaction, Melee 6 specialization 2, Dodge 5 specialized in melee +2 and weapon focus 3 for a total of =27 dice.

Your math is off there.
Weapon foci only add dice to melee attacks.
I doubt that you can add two specializations. Adding Dodge is not part of the skill test but a dice pool modifiers. Specialization is only used if the skill is involved in the test.

[Mäx]

So the dice pool is after modifiers, but the 2x(Attribute+Skill) doesn't include any enhancements. So to have a dice pool > 20, you'd have to have Attribute+Skill > 10 without factoring in cyber/bioware, magic, emotitoy, software, or any other goodness. That's probably why people usually just remember the "20 dice" part of the cap.

Considering that Elf can get their natural charisma up to 11 or their natural agility up to 10, i would say that (attribute+skill)*2 part is pretty significant as it allows an extra 12 dice for an gunslinger adept or extra 14 for an social adept.

[Karoline]

So, getting tremendous DPs can still allow you to do amazing things: 'ignore' wound penalties, visibility, lack of tools, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I guess groups can decide for themselves whether that's awesome or terrible.

Before a couple hours or so ago, I likely would have said terrible. But then I saw surviving the cut with EOD.

Now looking at it more real world: you can only be so good at disarming a bomb before you get to the point that you have an X% chance of disarming a given bomb. But, if you're really really skilled, then you can maintain that same % chance even while taking enemy fire, or with a timer counting down and the hostage it is strapped to screaming in your ear and not holding still, and so on.

Same goes with shooting a weapon. You can only be so good before you consistently put a bullet through the same hole over and over again, but being really good is being able to do that in the middle of a dust storm.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[Fringe]

Considering that Elf can get their natural charisma up to 11 or their natural agility up to 10, i would say that (attribute+skill)*2 part is pretty significant as it allows an extra 12 dice for an gunslinger adept or extra 14 for an social adept.

True. But that takes a lot of Karma to pull off, even assuming you started at max for the attribute.

I wonder if it also makes a difference for damage resistance tests, since there's no skill for that. A 20-dice pool is still significant, but it would mean that only a troll or (maybe) an ork could get a higher cap, since you'd be going off of Body only as there's no damage resistance skill.

[pbangarth]

I might be out to lunch here (and it's only 10 am!), but isn't it written somewhere that for damage resistance tests, armor takes the place of Skill for the purpose of determining dice pool cap?

[Karoline]

Actually I thought damage resistance test was like the one thing that didn't get capped.

[Fringe]

I haven't seen an exception for caps. But damage resistance tests is the only test unaffected by wound modifiers.

[jakephillips]

I haven't seen an exception for caps. But damage resistance tests is the only test unaffected by wound modifiers.

I don't limit damage resistance tests. Thanks for the thoughts, makes those super skilled characters have a reason to have pools above 20.

I don't want to stir the pot but I have to ask why have a cap of 20 if the attribute + skill X2 cap is in place. You are still capped if you are agl 3 and pistols 3 of only 12 dice. So why have a number associated with the upper limit 20 if you get to break it with Agl 7 plus skill 6 =13 so 26 total dice possible with positive mods. It is an optional rule just doesn't make much sense to me.

[KarmaInferno]

Again, it is the greater of the two. Not the lesser.

If your (natural attribute + skill) is less than or equal to 10, your total dice cap is 20.

If your (natural attribute + skill) is greater than 10, your total dice cap is double natural attribute + skill.

In your first example, with natural Agility 3 and Pistols skill 3, which is less than 10, so your dice cap is 20, not 12.

In your second example, you have Agility 7 and Skill 6, which is greater than 10, so you double it for a total dice cap of 26.

If it helps, think of it this way: The MINIMUM dice cap is 20. If you have really high natural attribute and skill ratings, you can raise it above 20.



-karma

[Karoline]

Again, it is the greater of the two. Not the lesser.

If your (natural attribute + skill) is less than or equal to 10, your total dice cap is 20.

If your (natural attribute + skill) is greater than 10, your total dice cap is double natural attribute + skill.

In your first example, with natural Agility 3 and Pistols skill 3, which is less than 10, so your dice cap is 20, not 12.

In your second example, you have Agility 7 and Skill 6, which is greater than 10, so you double it for a total dice cap of 26.



-karma

I think his point is that if you have a skill+attribute of less than 10, then you're unlikely to have a DP of more than 20, and if you have a skill+attribute of more than 10, then the limit of 20 is pointless.

Personally I think it should be whichever is lower, not higher. That means no one will ever have a DP of more than 20 (marking the limit of physical ability), and that low skill/ability people can't just grab a ton of equipment to give them a huge DP. They can ignore alot of penalties, but they can't use the stuff to its fullest ability.

[toturi]

I'd say that if you do not want your PCs to look for negative modifiers (that are within their control) to lower their dice pool to 20, then make the limit the higher of the 2. Also I'd say that NPCs should be so limited as well.

[Yerameyahu]

There's really no good way of flat limiting powergaming with a simple rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Munchkins are more… creative than that.

[Saint Sithney]

Same goes with shooting a weapon. You can only be so good before you consistently put a bullet through the same hole over and over again, but being really good is being able to do that in the middle of a dust storm.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

The Biathlon.

Sure, you can shoot, but how well can you shoot after cross-country skiing for 20 km?

[Karoline]

The Biathlon.

Sure, you can shoot, but how well can you shoot after cross-country skiing for 20 km?

Right, which was my point. Their skill is so high that even after taking those penalties they still are shooting at the top of their game, 20 dice.

I'd say that if you do not want your PCs to look for negative modifiers (that are within their control) to lower their dice pool to 20, then make the limit the higher of the 2. Also I'd say that NPCs should be so limited as well.

Why would a PC look for negative modifiers? Oh, I suppose you mean things like called shots for increased damage. I suppose that could be a potential problem, but I don't think it is that big of a problem. I'd rather force them to spend the extra actions for that called shot than simply let them have the extra dice.