[X] My Assistant

[Sephiroth]

A 200 Karma mage? How much money did he get extra with that 200 Karma.

If you look at Mission Rewards, to get 200 Karma which is roughly 45 missions. You would easily have received 5k per mission. That's 200,000 nuyen pretty easily. Even if I say 1/2 of it was spent on 'lifestyle and other costs.' That's still another 100K.

A 400bp mage, with 200 karma and 100,000 for foci, enchanted items and bound spirits? He's going to be able to Summon a Spirit as good as your 400bp+200 Karma free spirit.

A free spirit PC doesn't need to pay normal lifestyle costs. A FSPC does not need to spend money to learn spells. A FSPC doesn't even necessarily have to pay for a home. So where a mage is going to have to be spending fairly large amounts of money for spells, lifestyle, foci, and ritual materials, a FS is going to be free to utilize that money in different and possibly more effective ways. As an indirect result, a FSPC would be an excellent partner for a mage PC, as the FS could simply give all those funds to the magician if needed. Furthermore, if you are worried about the hardiness of your FS straight out of chargen, then take qualities like Exceptional Attribute, Lightning Reflexes, Tough as Nails, Arcane Arrester from SURGE, or (especially) Lucky. A FS has more breathing room for qualities than a mage, so you should take advantage of it.

[sabs]

Free Spirits should not be able to spend BP on qualities. Their 'Race' costs 250BP and gives them Magician for Free. Magician counts against the 35BP limit.. and really Free Spirits should just eat up your 35BP limit and swallow it whole.

[Laodicea]

I could be mistaken but I thought that the only qualities available to a PC free spirit were the ones listed in Runners Companion as being specific to PC free spirits.

It makes zero sense for a free spirit to be able to SURGE. They cannot be a mutant. They dont have any genetic material.

[Mäx]

I could be mistaken but I thought that the only qualities available to a PC free spirit were the ones listed in Runners Companion as being specific to PC free spirits.

Nope, RC has a very specifig list of qualities that aren't allowed for them, all else are fair game.

[Mooncrow]

I could be mistaken but I thought that the only qualities available to a PC free spirit were the ones listed in Runners Companion as being specific to PC free spirits.

It makes zero sense for a free spirit to be able to SURGE. They cannot be a mutant. They dont have any genetic material.

They decided to go the exclusive route and say 'they can take all qualities except...' yadda yadda. So no, it makes no sense whatsoever, but since the writers of the different RC sections never got to see each others sections (or something) they didn't list the Changeling stuff. And even sadder, the Changeling section includes "Non-Metahuman Sapients" as allowed to take it, albeit with GM permission. So, if you find a GM willing to give permission...

[Sephiroth]

Free Spirits should not be able to spend BP on qualities. Their 'Race' costs 250BP and gives them Magician for Free. Magician counts against the 35BP limit.. and really Free Spirits should just eat up your 35BP limit and swallow it whole.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Free Spirits effectively get 50 BP's worth of qualities (because of the free Magician qualitiy) compared to a mage's 35 BP's worth, and there is nothing prohibiting free spirits from purchasing qualities. The racial cost makes choosing qualities harder, yes, but that doesn't keep them from buying qualities in any way.

[sabs]

Magician counts against your Max 35 points of Positive Qualities limit.

Free Spirit does not.. that seems lame to me.

[pbangarth]

Magician counts against your Max 35 points of Positive Qualities limit.
Free Spirit does not.. that seems lame to me.

Free Spirits should not be able to spend BP on qualities. Their 'Race' costs 250BP and gives them Magician for Free. Magician counts against the 35BP limit.. and really Free Spirits should just eat up your 35BP limit and swallow it whole.

I don't understand what you are trying to get at here. There are many SR 'races' that give Qualities as part of the character and still allow the purchase of other Qualities. You argue that the Free Spirit PC is broken/weak, yet when someone points out a few of the advantages, you say they shouldn't have those. Well, they do. You argue that the BP cost of metatype should subsume Quality purchase. It doesn't. And in a rational discussion about the relative merits of a PC archetype, one needs to weigh both the positives and the negatives. Not dismiss the positives as things that 'should not be'.

Yes, I agree it is silly to give a Quality that depends on genetics to a being that has no genes. And I wouldn't even ask a GM to allow that for me. But some of the Qualities Sephiroth and others point out above make perfect sense. They help make the Free Spirit PC a viable choice. Or at least one not broken beyond playability.

[sabs]

But Free Spirit is the only race that gives you the Magician quality for Free. No other race does that.

Magicians after paying for Magician have 20 BP left for Positive Qualities.
Somehow, Free Spirits get to be Magicians AND have 35 BP left for Positive Qualities.
And they get to have hugely broken spirit powers at their disposal. It's an expensive race, to be sure.
But getting Spirit Powers, Cast Spells like a Magician, Have 0 use for Money, and get to buy 35 points worth of PQs. That seems over the top.

But really, Spirits are a huge balance issue in Shadowrun.
The PC Free Spirit is probably /more/ powerful than an equivalent Magician, except that the Magician gets to summon as many spirits of his own as he feels like.

[Sephiroth]

Yes, I agree it is silly to give a Quality that depends on genetics to a being that has no genes.

I suppose you could kind of argue that SURGE depends more on mana than on genes; that would make a SURGE'd spirit make more sense, particularly given the infinite variety of spirits and metaplanes. I mean, some of the metagenetic possibilities from SURGE are, as has even been pointed out in in-game fluff, scientifically bizarre. Does a human have any genes in common with a plant, for example?

[sabs]

Actually a human does have genes in common with a plant.

We share something like 70 or 80% of our genes with all living creatures
We share about 10% more with all animals
We share about 90% of our genes with all Mamals.
We share something like 97% of our genes with Great Apes.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sephiroth]

Actually a human does have genes in common with a plant.

We share something like 70 or 80% of our genes with all living creatures
We share about 10% more with all animals
We share about 90% of our genes with all Mamals.
We share something like 97% of our genes with Great Apes.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Touche. But IIRC there are no plants in humanity's evolutionary background. Plants and animals split off in different evolutionary paths far too long ago for it to make a significant difference. So it still remains scientifically bizarre that a person can SURGE into a plant-human hybrid.

[pbangarth]

A free spirit, in its materialized form, is made of energy in
the form of a set of coherent forces. These forces effect the
space around it, giving it the illusion of shape, mass, and
appearance. The interaction of these forces with the physical world cause light
to reflect at various wavelengths, making it possible for
cameras, ultrasound, radar, and other physical detection methods to
perceive the spirit. A free spirit has the "look and feel" of a
physical being, based on the form it took before it became free, but it
is not made of the materials that appear to make it up; "skin"
will not tan or sunburn, "iron" will not be attracted to magnets.
The spirit has no mass, but the forces in its form have all of the
effects of a body with mass, according to its Physical attributes. A
result of being comprised of energy is that the spirit needs no clothes,
food, or shelter to survive...

No genes here.

[Doc Chase]

No genes here.

Unless its name is Gene.

Or is a genie.

Or prefers good hygiene.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

Touche. But IIRC there are no plants in humanity's evolutionary background. Plants and animals split off in different evolutionary paths far too long ago for it to make a significant difference. So it still remains scientifically bizarre that a person can SURGE into a plant-human hybrid.

Yeah we split really early on.. at the single cell stage.

[Sephiroth]

Yeah we split really early on.. at the single cell stage.

Indeed. So like I said, it is more feasible for SURGE to be linked to mana than to genes. Thus it would make more sense this way for a spirit to have metagenetic qualities. Failing that, you could just say that it's materialized form has the 'look and feel' of a SURGE'd individual, anyway - a spirit can take the form and function of a toaster, for example, so what's wrong with a spirit taking the form of a Ganesha-type changeling or of Toad?

[Neraph]

The implication here is that the Attributes do not automatically rise with Force.

Not neccessarily. The rules for Free Spirits states that if they are disrupted with more overflow damage than they have Body (what would kill a normal person), one of their stats, chosen randomly, is reduced. This means that it is possible for them to have a stat lower than their Force.

[Mäx]

Not neccessarily. The rules for Free Spirits states that if they are disrupted with more overflow damage than they have Body (what would kill a normal person), one of their stats, chosen randomly, is reduced. This means that it is possible for them to have a stat lower than their Force.

Except you can't reduce someones stats below their minimum value.

[Neraph]

We share something like 97% of our genes with Great Apes.

You're a little out of date here. First off, we're genetically closest with chimpanzees, not great apes. Secondly, it's actually a 7.7% difference (means about 92.3% similarity, printed in Nature, May 27th issue, 2004, page 382-388), and growing the more we learn about genetics. We haven't even gotten close to decoding the human genome, and after we decode it we get to figure out what it means. They've only decoded 3 or 4 of the 24 chromosomes.

But let's say that they were right about the 1.6% difference like they used to think. That means a difference of 48,000,000 nucleotides; however, a change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to an animal. (That's by Dr. Barney Maddox, a leading genome researcher.)

EDIT: Oh, and those differences are based only on about one million DNA bases out of the three billion DNA bases. (Proceedings of the Natural Acadamy of Sciences, DOI: 10.1073/pnas.172510699, by Andy Coghlan)

[naga-nuyen]

Aaron
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2008, 07:35 PM)
"FWhat was the intent? Did you guys play test some characters? Can we see how you're supposed to look as a playable 400BP character?"

I have to pass on this one. It was 85 BP when I submitted the final draft. I imagine that either some last-minute playtest data came in, or an error was made somewhere along the line.

Funny this is from the author little over two years ago. Food for thought? Still digging through every post I can find about Free spirits that has a Developer adding something to the creation process. Will post anything I find that is relevant, Take care chummers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: this commit was after they posted a 400BP build and said after 250BP for the race they had 150 left which was not enough for a viable PC.

[Neraph]

Huh. So Free Spirits were originally intended to be 85 BP?

[naga-nuyen]

Synner
QUOTE (KitsuneKaze @ Aug 5 2008, 11:20 PM)
'ing:
It states that First Aid, Medicine and Medicine doesn't work for healing.

Was this meant to be First Aid, Medicine and Magic? And if this is so does that mean the Spirits are "immune" from the entire health school of magic, both positive and negative, due to a lack of a body"

The first instance of Medicine is a typo and will be edited out in Errata.

Regarding whether or not spirits can be subjected to magical healing, this was the subject of much discussion during development and playtesting. Ultimately it was decided, very late in development, for simple consistence that spirits should be as subject to Health spells as they are to Combat and Manipulation spells. I had previously made my position known on the subject on DSF (should we ever move to an SR5 it is among the aspects of spirit rules that I would be addressing differently, but in the context of SR4 the rules need to be consistent), but when I went to retract my earlier statement the thread had vanished. Consider it retracted here. to wit:

Spirits can be targeted by Health spells.

QUOTE
"Services:
Can a PC free spirit still give "bound" services like aid spellcasting and what not like NPC ones."

No. Free spirits, PC or NPC alike, do not provide bound services.

QUOTE
"Metaplanar Shortcut:
Tis a little over powered to bypass wards as such, I was going to ensure (as playing one of these) that a friend from the friendship pact is on the otherside to "lock on" even if I can clearly see physically the other side of the ward on the physical plane. Thoughts?"

Free Spirits can use Metaplanar shortcuts, but to arrive on target they should either be able to physically see or have previously physically visited the location they are shortcutting to (the friendship pact suggested above would work too).

Regarding the BP cost of Free Spirits, several things were changed due to playtesting feedback and developer decisions that came in after the author delivered the final draft. The Health spells issue above is one (not so much for Healing itself but for the fact that it allows spirits to do some pretty scary boosting of their already formidable abilities with appropriate Health spells). Another very important factor was a rise in the Free Spirit's starting Force in the final draft that led to a raise in the BP cost (since all Force-linked Attributes start at rating 2). This last change was a result of playtest feedback simply disliking the idea of Force 1 Free Spirits wandering round (in fact most suggest Force 3 as a baseline).
Other factors that weighed in on final BP cost include:
•the ability to move in three dimensions unfettered and to fly.
•the ability to move back and forth between the physical and astral plane (including the ability to pass through unwarded walls).
•the innate ability to access the metaplanes and use metaplanar shortcuts.
•its dual nature (which also means that unlike a magician it can act on both planes without the divided attention modifier)
•the innate Magician quality and the ability to use most Magical Skills (to a lesser extent the fact that it does not need spell formulas to learn spells).
•10 Attributes (Physical, Mental, Edge, Force/Magic) at a starting rating of 2.
•the innate extra Initiative Passes.
•the innate Immunity to Normal Weapons.
•the innate Immunity to Pathogens.
•the fact that free spirits can be Healed and boost their attributes with Health spells.
•the ability (for possession Free Spirits) to take over and abandon a vessel at will (barring successful resistance).
•the fact that they are characters that are near impossible to permanently destroy (temporarily disrupt yes, destroy no) and that for most purposes the character is ultimately immortal.
•the innate Spirit Powers and those they can buy—which have no Drain or associated downside.
•the Spirit Pact power.
•rarity.

Comparatively the downsides to playing a Free Spirit are minimal.

Note that Free spirits are intentionally short on points for other Skills and abilities. The rules and costs are for a recently Free Spirit and who is just starting out in metahuman society, not a spirit that's lived on Earth for an extensive period of time.

As for the example above, I'd definitely drop Force down one level, drop Edge down one or two levels, drop Aura Masking to begin with, and use those points elsewhere.

[naga-nuyen]

Aaron

"QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Aug 6 2008, 01:58 PM)
Free-spirits were inflated an arbitrary value from 85BPs to 250BPs by Catalyst's internal team. As said before, even at 150BPs their rarity would be maintained, but their playability would also be present."

I should throw something in here, now that I've noticed something. The original 85 BP draft version had all attributes starting at 1, not 2 as it is in this version. With that change, the "original" value would have been 185 BP, not 85, and it didn't account for cultural norms or population ratios.

[Udoshi]

The PC Free Spirit is probably /more/ powerful than an equivalent Magician, except that the Magician gets to summon as many spirits of his own as he feels like.

Not really. Free spirits cannot summon, and they can't get any bonuses from foci at all. They also have absolutely no way of dealing with sustaining bonuses from spells(sustaining foci? Psyke? Nope!). Possibly no mentor spirits either(away from books). They also can't be first aided to deal with drain, either.
That right there takes away most of the huge benefits of actually being a mage.

In return, however, they gain the ability to teleport around the world, not needing to sleep, and coming back from the dead by losing a point of force. Oh yeah, and spirit powers. But they're gimped, and NPC free spirits do it better.

[naga-nuyen]

Looking over one post this is a final build that Aaron said was done "right"

"hyzmarca
Manny 2 (Newly Freed Force 3 Spirit of Man, made with RC rules)

Race (250BP): Free Spirit

Attributes (10BP each, 80BP Total): Strength 3, Body 3, Agility 3, Reaction 3, Logic 3, Intuition 3, Charisma 3, Willpower 3

Special Attributes (10BP) Force 3 (10BP), Edge 2
Note: I'm assuming that Manny burned a point of Edge on his test to go Free.

Qualities (-15 BP): Magician: Shaman (0BP), Computer Illiterate (-5BP), Amnesia (-10BP)

Skills (12BP each, 72 Total): Assensing 3, Astral Combat 3, Dodge 3, Perception 3, Spellcasting 3, Unarmed Combat 3

Powers (2PP):[Standard Free Spirit Package] (0PP), Materialization (0PP), Accident (.5PP), Thermographic Vision (.25PP), Low Light Vision (.25PP), Guard(.5PP), Psychokinesis (.5PP), Spirit Pact: Friendship (0PP).

Spells (3BP each, 3BP Total): Heal

Total Cost: 400BP (of 400) , 2PP (of 2)

Statistically, he's the same. He has some qualties to represent his nature as indicated by the fluffier rules in RC, Computer Illiterate because he can't even see a screen (though why this is different from any other light source I do not know) and Amnesia because the PC Free Spirit apparently looses the memories of its former existence.

Former Innate Spell, Heal, is taken as an actual spell and some of his best powers are lost. Search, in Particular, is hard to see go. I kept Accident and gave him psychokenesis because he can still be a decent mischief-maker. I could get rid of his senses and Psychokenesis to give him Confuse, instead, making him a useful "debuffing" support character whose job it is to keep dice pools down. I could also free up another 10 BP and increase his Edge and do that, or eliminate Psychokenesis and Enhanced Senses, as well, and give him Fear. Both are useful options that change the way he can be played.

But he needs magical protection at all times. A single magician or a Spirit of Man with Manabolt will utterly destroy him."

That is all I could find that seems to be relevant, your call really on how you want it to be played in your game. I would love to find a game that would allow me to play one, even if it was the 400BP build. It would be fun; yes it would take time to develop but man what a PC when you develop it. I also love the thought of him/her being new to the world....like playing a fully grown newborn in some regards (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)