[X] My Assistant

[Irion]

@Neraph

Not neccessarily. The rules for Free Spirits states that if they are disrupted with more overflow damage than they have Body (what would kill a normal person), one of their stats, chosen randomly, is reduced. This means that it is possible for them to have a stat lower than their Force.

Do you have a different book, then the rest of us?

If a spirit takes enough damage to overflow its Physical
Condition Monitor by more than its Willpower(NOT BODY) attribute, its Force(NOT SOME ATTRIBUTE)
is reduced by 1 when it returns to its home metaplane. Its natural
maximum attributes are also reduced, which may cause the reduction
of one or more attribute ratings.

Well, it is like I suspected form start. You just want to push sour interpretation through.

@The quotation of Synner.

•the fact that free spirits can be Healed and boost their attributes with Health spells.

Which by the rules, they may not. But well, I guess I will have to change the P to an M. (Healing spells should all be mana anyway, because they should only affect living beings. )

[Mäx]

Which by the rules, they may not

Can you tell to the rest of us exactly which part of the rules says they can't, as i cant find it.

[Irion]

Increase Attribute is a pyhsical spell. It does not work on Astral Forms. (If I did not miss an errata)

[Mäx]

Increase Attribute is a pyhsical spell. It does not work on Astral Forms. (If I did not miss an errata)

Materialized spirit isn't an astral form.

[Irion]

Well, they are just unable to use it in their natural surrounding. By RAW.

As a matter of fact, if increase Body(physical) works on a spirit, there is no reason it could not work on a drone.
Well, and here again lies madness.

[Mordinvan]

"Ok, so fire spirit, I want you to materialize in the vault and search through the file cabinet for the report on project Golf Ravine."
"What's a report?"

Depending on the tradition of the mage, the spirit may well know what a report is and could have been one of the team leaders on THAT report, who kicked off prior to its completion. Or atleast think it is.

[Laodicea]

Looking over one post this is a final build that Aaron said was done "right"



That is all I could find that seems to be relevant, your call really on how you want it to be played in your game. I would love to find a game that would allow me to play one, even if it was the 400BP build. It would be fun; yes it would take time to develop but man what a PC when you develop it. I also love the thought of him/her being new to the world....like playing a fully grown newborn in some regards (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

wild. It seems the 3rd option which i called "unthinkable" is "right."

Thats awful.

[sabs]

wild. It seems the 3rd option which i called "unthinkable" is "right."

Thats awful.

Wow.. that's..
I take it back.. Free Spirits PC's are just stupid and brokenly bad.

A non min-maxed starting mage can summon spirits that will kick this guy's ass.
A Force 4 spirit would go to town with him.

[pbangarth]

In the example PC posted by hyzmarca and quoted HERE by naga-nuyen, a Force 3 Free Spirit PC has his Attributes raised to 3 for 10 BP each. This appears to contradict the 'hard-max' requirement to pay 25 BP for the maximum value of the Attribute. Am I missing something in the rules in RC or elsewhere?

[Laodicea]

In the example PC posted by hyzmarca and quoted HERE by naga-nuyen, a Force 3 Free Spirit PC has his Attributes raised to 3 for 10 BP each. This appears to contradict the 'hard-max' requirement to pay 25 BP for the maximum value of the Attribute. Am I missing something in the rules in RC or elsewhere?

hahahahaha

Using these rules where the force attribute is both the minimum and maximum, but you still have to pay for each attribute individually, you technically would be stuck paying 25 BP for EVERY SINGLE ATTRIBUTE, which there is literally not enough BP for.

[pbangarth]

hahahahaha

Using these rules where the force attribute is both the minimum and maximum, but you still have to pay for each attribute individually, you technically would be stuck paying 25 BP for EVERY SINGLE ATTRIBUTE, which there is literally not enough BP for.

Well, no. You raise Force to 5 first, then it would cost 10 BP for #3, 10 BP for #4 and 25 BP for #5 in any particular Attribute. The example suggests this is not so. I'm wondering where we are told it is not so.

[TommyTwoToes]

I was looking through the Free Spirit rules in SM (I am AFB now but I think it was page 108) and under the ruels for a free spirit spending karma it said that rasing force raised all other attributes.

Of course it seems that if you don't have the Friendship Pact, you are going to have to earn Karma in a very different way than the rest of the group.

[pbangarth]

I was looking through the Free Spirit rules in SM (I am AFB now but I think it was page 108) and under the ruels for a free spirit spending karma it said that rasing force raised all other attributes.

Of course it seems that if you don't have the Friendship Pact, you are going to have to earn Karma in a very different way than the rest of the group.

In RC, page 91 it tells us that PC Free Spirits use different rules from NPC Free Spirits. As well, on page 93, in two places, under Free Spirit Health and in the Spirit Pacts sidebar it tells us that dropping Force may reduce "one or more attribute ratings."

EDIT: And a Life Pact with some of the fellow PCs might help the Free Spirit progress more quickly and give a (costly) semi-regeneration power to the other PCs.

[Laodicea]

Well, no. You raise Force to 5 first, then it would cost 10 BP for #3, 10 BP for #4 and 25 BP for #5 in any particular Attribute. The example suggests this is not so. I'm wondering where we are told it is not so.

But according to the method which i called "unthinkable" which is apparently "right", you have to raise each attribute up to your Force. They can't be lower than it, as it is the minimum.

[pbangarth]

But according to the method which i called "unthinkable" which is apparently "right", you have to raise each attribute up to your Force. They can't be lower than it, as it is the minimum.

Yes, I see where you are getting that from the first sentence under Free Spirit Attributes, but that reference for the start of the PC generation process is later clarified by two pieces of text that say not all Attributes have to be the same as Force.

[Mäx]

But according to the method which i called "unthinkable" which is apparently "right", you have to raise each attribute up to your Force. They can't be lower than it, as it is the minimum.

I don't care how much the guy who wrote it claims it to be the correct use of the rules, it just isn't in the version that was printed in RC.
You never,ever have to pay for your characters minimum attributes, no matter what the minimum value is, otherwise characters taking metagenetic improvment surge quality would have to pay 10BP extra to raise the attribute to its new minimum value and the same goes for those making their character infected and thats just not how the chargen system works.

[TommyTwoToes]

Yes, I see where you are getting that from the first sentence under Free Spirit Attributes, but that reference for the start of the PC generation process is later obfuscated by two pieces of text that say not all Attributes have to be the same as Force.

fixed that for yah (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

fixed that for yah (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, yeah. The text at the start of the section on Attributes is poorly worded, and therefore is subject to multiple interpretations. It could mean all the Attributes rise with Force, it could mean they don't. The two pieces of text about what happens when Force drops cannot be interpreted in any way except that Attributes don't all have to be the same as Force.

[Laodicea]

The general spirit of the rules regarding spirits dont force spirits to have Attributes = to Force. Just look at the spirits in the critters section. Their atts are strongly based on their force. F+2 or F-2 for example, but they're not always = Force.

[sabs]

Shouldn't force+2 be impossible since officially Force = Max attribute?

[Laodicea]

Right. You pretty much have to suspend all of the other rules about the game when it comes to PC free spirits.

Look at the Critters section in SR4A pg 302. All of these spirit critters have F-2 or F+3 type modifiers for many of their attributes. Non-PC free spirits seem a little more restricted. Depending on your interpretation of the PC Free Spirit rules, PC free spirits are far far more restricted.

[sabs]

Interestingly a spirit of air with less than a 4 force cannot materialize.
How interesting.

Their Body Rating is F-3, so unless they have a Force of 4, they have a 0 or negative Body score.
Wouldn't that mean that they die almost immediately upon materializing? What does a negative body score even mean.

[TommyTwoToes]

The general spirit of the rules regarding spirits dont force spirits to have Attributes = to Force. Just look at the spirits in the critters section. Their atts are strongly based on their force. F+2 or F-2 for example, but they're not always = Force.

If someone were to re-rwite the spirit rules, I would think that the best bet would be to have the base stats = Force, and then the player can buy stats up (spending BP) from there or lower them (for a rebate in BP). Put a cap on stats similar to augmented max of 1.5 time the Force.

As an alternative, the player could pick the spirit type form the appropriate tradition and use the stat modifiers for that spirit.

As is, you are going to be starved for points no matter how you look at it. Under the "high powered" viewpoint ,with 250 for race, 65 to get Force to 6, as someone else pointed out, this only leaves you with 85 points for Spells, Contacts and Skills.

You are going to have stats of 6, Ork or Troll Sams are going to blow you away in Reaction, Body, Strength, and IP's.
Mages are going to blow you away on casting Dicepools due to Foci and metamagic.

[DamienKnight]

@all refuters of free spirit vs normal summoned possession spirit

The possession free spirit character in our group had a couple things:

- Immunity to Normal Weapons
- Regeneration
- The Spirit Pact which allows him to Grant his Powers to others

and eventually he picked up concealment.

Not only can the spirit not die in combat (just maybe get banished for 28-force days... that is a HUGE advantage) he can grant players Normal Weapon Immunity, Regeneration, and can use conceal on them.

Can your summoned possesion spirit do that? Ahhh-no.

On a side note, the character got too close to a Johnson, who figured out the characters true nature, and who eventually wrote a Spirit Formula, then when the character was in bad shape said, 'Here, come to my Safehouse and I will protect you.' Then commenced in luring the Free Spirit character into a Domain and pwning him, taking control of him.

Once someone owns a free spirit character, they are SCREWED. Big time. Virtually impossible to break free short of getting help from others.

[TommyTwoToes]

Formula pact is your friend