[X] My Assistant

[Irion]

Sometimes I wonder, if people are not able to do basic calculations or if they are just to fucking lazy to do so.

Assumption:
All attributes are raised with Force.
Raising Force costs as much as raising magic.

Question: How high do I have to raise the Force of my spirit in order to get the hole package for free?

Well lets to the math.
First of all you start with force 2 and all attributes 2. This would have cost you about 90BP.
From 3 to 5 every BP in force is worth 10 BP (nine if you do not raise edge).
So:
Force 3: 80 (90) Free BPs.
Force 4: 160 (180) Free BPs.
Force 5: 240 (270) Free BPs.
This means: If you just raise your Force to 5, you would have gotten Attributes worth 320 to 360 BP for a the Cost of 250BP.

So you can't be serious with that, can you?

[pbangarth]

Sometimes I wonder, if people are not able to do basic calculations or if they are just to fucking lazy to do so.

If one were snide, one could ask the same about grammar and spelling.

Assumption:
All attributes are raised with Force.
Raising Force costs as much as raising magic.

Question: How high do I have to raise the Force of my spirit in order to get the hole package for free?

Well lets to the math.
First of all you start with force 2 and all attributes 2. This would have cost you about 90BP.
From 3 to 5 every BP in force is worth 10 BP (nine if you do not raise edge).
So:
Force 3: 80 (90) Free BPs.
Force 4: 160 (180) Free BPs.
Force 5: 240 (270) Free BPs.
This means: If you just raise your Force to 5, you would have gotten Attributes worth 320 to 360 BP for a the Cost of 250BP.

Shouldn't the basic calculation here be 250 BP + 30 BP = 280 BP for raising the Force to 5?

[TommyTwoToes]

Sometimes I wonder, if people are not able to do basic calculations or if they are just to fucking lazy to do so.

Assumption:
All attributes are raised with Force.
Raising Force costs as much as raising magic.

Question: How high do I have to raise the Force of my spirit in order to get the hole package for free?

Well lets to the math.
First of all you start with force 2 and all attributes 2. This would have cost you about 90BP.
From 3 to 5 every BP in force is worth 10 BP (nine if you do not raise edge).
So:
Force 3: 80 (90) Free BPs.
Force 4: 160 (180) Free BPs.
Force 5: 240 (270) Free BPs.
This means: If you just raise your Force to 5, you would have gotten Attributes worth 320 to 360 BP for a the Cost of 250BP.

So you can't be serious with that, can you?

Lets see what else you get for free,
Can't read / see AR
Can't use VR - these 2 mean no technological communication for you.
If someone gets your formula, they own you.
Can be permenantly banished (must buy specific power to avoid)
Cannot earn Karma without siphoning from other players (must buy specific power to avaoid)
Cannot augment stats without using health spells (those spell must be sustained without access to sustaining foci)
Routine equiptment (like sense enhancing gear, weapons, communications) cannot be used if you take advantage of your primary movement advantage.
Have no rights (or you are newly enfranchised based on your story location) discrimination time.
Vulnerable to FAB
Cannot augment drain resistance without raising Force


And look, all that without cursing, or attacking anyone.

[Laodicea]

Right. you shouldn't be a free spirit if you want to be a hacker.

Communication with your team is still simpler than any technological means. You take a spirit friend pact with all of them and have a direct psychic link.

The advantages of being a meta-planar being still outweigh the disadvantages heavily enough. Particularly access to the Spirit Powers. Fear, movement, and Engulf are all ridiculously good.

[Neraph]

The advantages of being a meta-planar being still outweigh the disadvantages heavily enough. Particularly access to the Spirit Powers. Fear, movement, and Engulf are all ridiculously good.

At the appropriate Force. A 6 Dicepool Fear isn't going to do a whole heck of a lot. 3x movement speed is nice, but not game-changing where it counts, and Engulf is seriously a joke. I've never seen it be effective.

[Laodicea]

Right. So we're left with 4 options.
1. the overpowered option mentioned in the second post of this thread by me.
2. the underpowered option mentioned in the second post of this thread by me.
3. the unthinkable option which is apparently what the designers intended.
4. toss out this shit and houserule the whole PC free spirit thing as several people have proposed doing here.

I think option 2 or 4 are probably the wisest course of action for actual play. If its a high-powered game I'd go for option 1 over option 2.

edit: what are you talking about with engulf being crappy? it's a melee attack that deals instant damage = Force + net hits, and grapples the target, causing Force damage every IP of the spirit. It arguably does not require being in melee range. It doesnt penalize you -2 for sustaining it. You could potentially engulf a different person on every IP.

[sabs]

You forgot 5.
Don't let people play Free PC's at all.
Better yet, don't let people play anything from RC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

If one were snide, one could ask the same about grammar and spelling.

Shouldn't the basic calculation here be 250 BP + 30 BP = 280 BP for raising the Force to 5?

I ad sworn it would never happen to me, but I am not thinking in numbers anymore.
Well, I took it into accout by eliminating it from both sides.

Formula: (F-2)*10+(F-2)*80(90)=(F-2)*10+X
Kicked the two (F-2)*10 and got to X =(F-2)*80(90)
In the end I added the attributes I allready had 100BP (*darn it, here I forgot force).
So in die End I had "Free BP in Attributes(Force)"=100 + (Force-2)*80 Force: 2-5
Now I looked when it hits the 250. Thats about Force 4.
@TommyTwoToes

Can be permenantly banished (must buy specific power to avoid)

Wich is the equivalent to: Can only be killed by Thor shot. Well, what a disadvantage.

If someone gets your formula, they own you.

Well, because it is so much harder to implant a bomb in the head of a person. (Nope, it is not)

Routine equiptment (like sense enhancing gear, weapons, communications) cannot be used if you take advantage of your primary movement advantage.

You no what a disadvantage is supposed to be? This is at best a limitation. (As a matter of fact, you are unable to make use of most visual sense enhancing gear, since you do not see AR, but thats an other point)

[kzt]

Depending on the tradition of the mage, the spirit may well know what a report is and could have been one of the team leaders on THAT report, who kicked off prior to its completion. Or atleast think it is.

I'll admit that I failed to point out that creatures made of magical fire that do extra special damage to anything they touch probably don't do well with cabinets full of paper, but it's seems kind of an obvious issue.

[TommyTwoToes]

@TommyTwoToes

Wich is the äuivalent to: Can only be killed by Thor shot. Well, what a disadvantage.

Any mage who gets ahold of your formula can banish you, forever. The population of mages is much larger than the population of folks with access to command a Thor shot.

Well, because it is so much harder to implant a bomb in the head of a person. (Nope, it is not)

They don't even have to be in the room with you to acomplish this. You must have some item that has your formula sitting on the physical plane for you to exist. I beleive that a mage can also get your spirit formula from observing you (but I am not positive on that one.)

You no what a disadvantage is supposed to be? This is at best a limitation. (As a matter of fact, you are unable to make use of most visual sense enhancing gear, since you do not see AR, but thats an other point)

explain to me how limitations that limit you are not disadvantages?

[TommyTwoToes]

I'll admit that I failed to point out that creatures made of magical fire that do extra special damage to anything they touch probably don't do well with cabinets full of paper, but it's seems kind of an obvious issue.

What's paper?

[Mooncrow]

I'll admit that I failed to point out that creatures made of magical fire that do extra special damage to anything they touch probably don't do well with cabinets full of paper, but it's seems kind of an obvious issue.

What tradition are you using that can only summon fire elementals?

[Irion]

explain to me how limitations that limit you are not disadvantages?

Alright. I will explain the differance between an disadvantage and a limitation.

For example:
You may fly by the power of thought up to high of 1000m.
But it comes with a price: From now on you are allergic to penuts.

Limitation: You are not able to fly higher.
Disadvantage: Allergy against penuts.

Why? Because a normal person would not be able to fly at all. And due to that fact, she would also not be able to fly higher then 1000 m.

[naga-nuyen]

wow, okay from the information that was posted, and reading the rules it is time to make a Free spirit. This is by RAW, but if your personal interpretation on it is different, would you go PM a developer and get their input....other than that it is your take on RAW...this one is agreed upon by both Aaron and Synner by the look of it. (in forums it is hard to get an absolute final ruling)

Cost of Race: 250 BP
Base stats: Body: 2, Agility: 2, Reaction: 2, Strength: 2, Charisma: 2, Intuition: 2, Logic: 2, Willpower: 2, Essence: 2, Force/Magic: 2, Edge: 2
Tradition: Materialization, summoned by Druid. Base drain stats: Willpower + intuition
Base racial abilities: Magician, banishment resistance, Immunity to normal weapons, spirit pact powers

Lets raise the stats then:
First we raise Force: 2+2=4 for 20 BP, then we raise Drain stats and edge to = force for 60 BP total of 80BP
Final stats: Body: 2, Agility: 2, Reaction: 2, Strength: 2, Charisma: 2, Intuition: 4, Logic: 2, Willpower: 4, Essence: 4, Force/Magic: 4, Edge: 4
Tradition: Materialization, summoned by Druid. Base drain stats: Willpower + intuition
Base racial abilities: Magician, banishment resistance, Immunity to normal weapons, spirit pact powers
Total cost now is 330 BP

Let’s add skills: 60BP
Assensing 3 (12 BP), Astral Combat 3 (12 BP), Dodge 2 (8 BP), Perception 2 (8 BP), Spellcasting 4 (16 BP), Unarmed Combat 1 (4 BP)
Total cost now is 390BP

Spells: Increase reflexes (3BP), Heal (3BP), mana ball (3BP)
Total cost is now 399 BP

Resources: 1BP nick knacks and stuff.

Powers: 4 points; Realistic form (.5), Concealment (2), Guard (.5), animal control (1)

Qualities: Erased (slow) [-5BP], Trust fund (high lifestyle +1,000$ a month) [-20]
Negative: Sinner (pueblo) [+5BP], Prejudiced (Magicians who mistreat spirits: radical) [+20BP],

This creates a 400BP free spirit, which would be fun to role play, and though they start out week, with initiation they seem to not have a Maximum Attribute rating, so really the sky (Karma amount) is the limit for these PC’s.

[kzt]

So how do you gain karma as a free spirit? IIRC, you only gain it via pacts or the absurd "link your lifeforce to random strangers" pact.

[sabs]

I would assume that a PC Free Spirit would earn karma like all other pc?

[kzt]

I would assume that a PC Free Spirit would earn karma like all other pc?

That would make sense, but I'm fairly sure they explicitly say otherwise in the section. I have no idea why. But I don't have the book here to check.

[sabs]

Karma gain is NOT mentioned at all in the Free Spirit PC section.

[pbangarth]

Free Spirits, both NPC and PC, gain karma thorugh Spirit Pacts. All of the Spirit Pacts in Street Magic are available to a PC, through spending Power points, as well as the Friendship Pact in the sidebar, page 93, Runner's Companion. This last enables the PC Free Spirit to garner karma as do other PCs.

[sabs]

Free Spirits, both NPC and PC, gain karma thorugh Spirit Pacts. All of the Spirit Pacts in Street Magic are available to a PC, through spending Power points, as well as the Friendship Pact in the sidebar, page 93, Runner's Companion. This last enables the PC Free Spirit to garner karma as do other PCs.

That's not what the Friendship Pact says at all?
I read it, and I'm just not seeing that.

[naga-nuyen]

Friendship Pact
A Friendship Pact is an agreement in which the spirit trades its protection and assistance in exchange for a closer connection to the physical and astral planes. It allows a spirit to create a magical bond with a group of sentient people native to the physical plane. The spirit must find a number of people for the pact equal to its Force. Should the spirit’s Force ever increase, it must find another friend to add to the pact within a day of the increase.

This bond more strongly connects the spirit to the physical world. The spirit gains the ability to acquire its own Karma as a metahuman does. The spirit also gains the ability to communicate with its bonded friends mentally in images and thoughts up to the spirit’s Force x 10 meters. This communication is only between the spirit and one or more bonded friends, and not between the friends in question. The bond also strengthens the spirit’s ties to the Earth. it loses the 28-day limitation on returning from its home metaplane and may return as soon as it is fully healed.

This pact does exact a toll on the spirit. Every time a pact member dies, the spirit’s Force rating is reduced by one. Its natural maximum attributes are also reduced, which may cause the reduction of one or more attribute ratings; if a spirit’s Edge is reduced, it also loses at least one Power Point worth of critter powers. If all of the spirit’s pact friends die, its Force is reduced to zero and the spirit dissipates into the astral. To help delay this fate, a spirit may burn one of its own Edge to save a pact friend from death (p. 68, SR4). A free spirit may start the game with a Friendship Pact in place with any other eligible and willing player characters. The people participating in a Friendship Pact with the spirit do not need the Spirit Pact quality.

Copyright© 2008 WizKids Inc. All Rights Reserved. Shadowrun, Runner’s Companion, Matrix, and WK Games are registered trademarks and/or trademarks of WizKids, Inc. in the United States and/ or other countries. No part of this work may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, without the prior permission in writing of the Copyright Owner, nor be otherwise circulated in any form other than that in which it is published. Catalyst Game Labs and the Catalyst Game Labs logo are trademarks of InMediaRes Productions, LLC. Printed in Canada.
Page. 93 RC

[pbangarth]

That's not what the Friendship Pact says at all?
I read it, and I'm just not seeing that.

As naga-nuyen quotes, see second sentence, paragraph 2.

[pbangarth]

@naga-nuyen: Your sample PC is interesting. I'm toying with the numbers, and frankly I'm thinking maybe not putting much at all into Active Skills at the start, but more into the Powers. But there is one chargen problem still bothering me.

I still don't see where we are told that a Free Spirit PC is not subject to the 25 BP cost for the 'hard max' improvement to an Attribute. Could someone help me out here, please. Is it just in that example that a couple of writers said was OK?

EDIT: As I read the instructions, you follow chargen as per the book except where told to do otherwise.

[naga-nuyen]

Hello pbangarth: I will make this reply quick, ending the evening with my little boy and wife. But will post a little more detail latter tonight.
I would say that you would run the free spirit as you would a normal PC, hard Max at creation would be force 6 which would cost 55BP for the full 6. Then the rest of your stats would be maxed at 5 across the board just for Chargen. As i see it the Free spirit has no racial Max....which means as long as you play and a gain karma you can increase your force through Initiation, then have the option of increasing your other stats as you see fit.

Last note: I put the example together really quickly this morning, i will sit down and do a full build for a PV version tonight as well and post it. Good day chummers.

[pbangarth]

Hello pbangarth: I will make this reply quick, ending the evening with my little boy and wife. But will post a little more detail latter tonight.
I would say that you would run the free spirit as you would a normal PC, hard Max at creation would be force 6 which would cost 55BP for the full 6. Then the rest of your stats would be maxed at 5 across the board just for Chargen. As i see it the Free spirit has no racial Max....which means as long as you play and a gain karma you can increase your force through Initiation, then have the option of increasing your other stats as you see fit.

Yup, I see all that. But in your example, you raised Force to 4 from 2, and then raise Drain stats and Edge to 4, paying 20 BP for each to go from 2 to 4. But with Force at 4, the maximum for all the other Attributes is 4, and so the cost to raise one from 2 to 4, according to the basic rules that I don't see modified anywhere for a PC Free Spirit, would be 10 + 25 = 35 BP, not 20 BP. That's the part that bugs me.

Have fun with family, buddy. My wife is 3000 km away. My one stepdaughter is 500 km further that direction. My daughter is 5500 km the other direction. My two other stepchildren are only 100 km away, when they're not off... somewhere. So get it when you can.