[X] My Assistant

[naga-nuyen]

Force is the determining attribute for the free spirit, everything adjusts of it, but if you count each point of force as the PC generation maximum then you would have to spend 25 point to raise force 2-3, then 3-4.....and so on. This attribute is hard set at 6 maximum in the RC page 92, to avoid crippling the spirit to appoint that prevents playability we will call that its racial maximum, So that would cost 25BP to raise to its max, then we have edge which would cost 65 to raise to max 6, then one attribute that could be raised to 6 for 25BP. Every other attribute highest rank would be 5. That is if you had enough points to create a free spirit to this level (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Wow, it has been a few years sense i have seen separation of family of that scale. I spent some time down range while in the service, but that was before i was married and had a child. My Wife’s family is a fair grip away being in Australia, but it makes for visiting fun times indeed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

Force is the determining attribute for the free spirit, everything adjusts of it, but if you count each point of force as the PC generation maximum then you would have to spend 25 point to raise force 2-3, then 3-4.....and so on.

Not if you raise Force to where you want it first, in this case to 4. Then raising another Attribute, like Edge, to 3 would cost only 10 BP, not 25 BP. Your example in this post would happen only if the Force were raised by one, and then other Attributes raised, and then Force raised by one again. This might happen if Force dragged all the Attributes up with it, but your PC example above doesn't do that.

I'm not trying to be obstreperous, but the original example presented with the implied verification from the authors is the only thing we have that shows a break from the 'hard max' cost. I don't get it.

Wow, it has been a few years sense i have seen separation of family of that scale. I spent some time down range while in the service, but that was before i was married and had a child. My Wife’s family is a fair grip away being in Australia, but it makes for visiting fun times indeed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, my youngest is 26, so if you haven't experienced it yet, you may.

[pbangarth]

Hey, cool. In Karmagen, a 750 karma PC Free Spirit could spend 875 of its 750 karma on Attributes. (half the starting total plus twice the racial BP cost, in karma points)

[kzt]

Do you sometimes get the feeling that this wasn't extensively playtested? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neraph]

Frequently.

And with more than just Free Spirit PC's too.

[Irion]

Not if you raise Force to where you want it first, in this case to 4. Then raising another Attribute, like Edge, to 3 would cost only 10 BP, not 25 BP. Your example in this post would happen only if the Force were raised by one, and then other Attributes raised, and then Force raised by one again. This might happen if Force dragged all the Attributes up with it, but your PC example above doesn't do that.

I would dare to say, that a spirit already payed for getting the maximum, because they actually started with it.
(This is for example a point of the rules which is not clear)

So a spirit with Drain Attribut 6, Force 6, Willpower 6 and Edge 6 would pay.

40+40+25(what I said is not true for Force)+40+40= 175.
A normal character would pay 25*3= 75 more BP.


Puplic announcement:
If you want to complain about free spirit rules:
They are about 70 BP too expensive and some powers (I am locking at you too spirit pacts) are just abusiv.

If you want to complain about things being imbalanced, talk about the magic quailities.
Full magician should be around 50 points, mystic adept around 35 and adept 10, and they would still be cheap. (Well, then they should not count towards the limit of positiv qualities. As a matter of fact I do not see, why there is a limit at all. Especially if your are able to partiallybybass it with surge.

[pbangarth]

I would dare to say, that a spirit already payed for getting the maximum, because they actually started with it.

Hey! This sort of makes sense.

As a matter of fact I do not see, why there is a limit at all. Especially if your are able to partiallybybass it with surge.

I would see this point more if there were a requirement for positive and negative Qualities taken by the PC to be balanced. If not, then with no limit you could get some wonky PCs who have a couple of hundred extra BP from negative Qualities. Yes, I know the GM could have playtime with such a PC, but the possibility would still exist.

[Irion]

Well, there is no reason not to limit the points gained by negativ qualities.

[Starmage21]

Puplic announcement:
If you want to complain about free spirit rules:
They are about 70 BP too expensive and some powers (I am locking at you too spirit pacts) are just abusiv.

You forgot that if your PCs get a positive quality, you're supposed to charge them karma for it. So if the PC free spirit has a high edge, it could cost them 60+ karma to gain the spirit pacts that the PC Free Spirit offers.


So here's the thing, the only thing that changes as a result of the PC free spirit being in the group, its the availability of free spirit powers, not the cost to the other PCs.

[Aaron]

Hello, folks. Sorry I'm late.

I said what, now?

[Sephiroth]

Hello, folks. Sorry I'm late.

I said what, now?

A bunch of things, apparently. You are quoted several times on page 5, and we're all terribly divided in our interpretation of what you meant when you wrote the attribute minimums/maximums stuff for FSPC's.

[Aaron]

Looking over one post this is a final build that Aaron said was done "right"

When you say "Aaron said," do you mean I actually said it, or that you read stuff I posted and assumed I'd approve?

As for what I meant when I wrote stuff, what I meant does not actually matter. I write on a "work for hire" basis. The work I do is basically the same as a ghost writer: Catalyst gets the copyright and is considered the author in a very legal sense. If my work wins an award, I don't get the statuette for my mantle. Additionally, almost all of my work is edited, reworked, or added to once I send it in, based on what the developer wants to change (for example, when I put my marriage proposal into Runner's Companion, I put it in three different places to make it more likely to survive the editing process).

That said, I am honored with inside access to some of the developers' thought processes, so maybe I can help clarify things if Synner isn't around and it doesn't lean too heavily on my NDA. =i)

[Sephiroth]

That said, I am honored with inside access to some of the developers' thought processes, so maybe I can help clarify things if Synner isn't around and it doesn't lean too heavily on my NDA. =i)

If you are indeed able to clarify a few things in this case, that would be most excellent. The below post aptly sums up what is in greatest need of clarification, and what has got us all so divided in our interpretation thereof:

This is a hotly debated topic because the section on PC free spirit characters in runners companion and the section on free spirits in Street Magic are not the most clearly written thing ever.

There's basically 2 schools of thought.

1. The free spirit PC has physical and mental stats equal to its Force, which starts at 2(which you do not pay for), and can be raised up to 6 at character creation, and further by initiation and raising of the Force stat in-game. Raising your Force stat raises all your other mental and physical stats at the same time. You need not raise each one individually.

This method results in a drastically overpowered character in all cases.


2. The free spirit PC has physical and mental stats which start at 2, you do not pay for these 2 points. The Force stat is the natural maximum for physical and mental stats, so to raise any stat, you must first raise force. You then pay for each stat separately to raise it, up to the natural maximum of Force.
This is the method supported by the community DK SR4 chargen excel spreadsheet.

This method results in an underpowered character in almost all cases. The character can still be good if it abuses the hell out of some of the spirit powers such as fear, engulf, and movement.

In either case, free spirit characters fundamentally change the game. Especially materialization free spirits, who can easily teleport themselves wherever and materialize wherever.

Emphases mine.

[Neraph]

(for example, when I put my marriage proposal into Runner's Companion, I put it in three different places to make it more likely to survive the editing process).

I know this is off topic, but:
1) Did it work?
2) If you told her another way, did she say "Yes?"

[Aaron]

If you are indeed able to clarify a few things in this case, that would be most excellent. The below post aptly sums up what is in greatest need of clarification, and what has got us all so divided in our interpretation thereof:

I'm fairly certain that the correct interpretation of the rules for free spirit PCs is the latter case. I came up with that mechanic because the alternative was the NPC method, where every stat goes up with Force, but I didn't like that method for two reasons. First, it made for a very limited variation in characters: you couldn't, for example, have a very strong, very dumb spirit, and every spirit that was highly charismatic would also be highly quick and extremely clever. I figured that the rules for NPC spirits were kinda like the rules for other NPCs: not every Lone Star cop has Logic 3, for example, and not every great dragon has Reaction 11. The second reason was simply because if we used the NPC rules where everything goes up with Force, each rating point would cost 100 BP or (new rating x 50) Karma; yes, I know that Street Magic says it only costs new rating x 10 Karma, but a) that's for NPCs, and b) that was written when attributes were cheaper anyway.

To those who believe this to create underpowered characters, I can only offer two ideas. First, you could try quoting previous comments about my opinion that it should have been 85 and begging your GM to give you the extra BP. Second, you could try being creative and maximizing your fairly unique advantages.

I suppose you could also try complaining about it on Dumpshock, but that hasn't seemed to work yet. =i)

[Aaron]

I know this is off topic, but:
1) Did it work?
2) If you told her another way, did she say "Yes?"

http://aaron-pike.livejournal.com/70679.html

=i)

[naga-nuyen]

First thanks Aaron for clearing up my mistakes, it is awesome to see some support for something that has so many different views.

I do wish to say sorry for my assumption, as I am wrong i hold myself accountable.

I spent some time just trying to find developers input on this issue, then I thought i could post it to help out.

I feel comfortable with the free spirit creation process, but if it is in error then I would adjust accordingly.

As i have little experience playing the game as yet, I will hold of playing one till I get back into the swing of things. But after some time, I could find myself creating and playing a free spirit for a long time....they are just that cool of a concept.

Have a good day runners!

[Aaron]

First thanks Aaron for clearing up my mistakes, it is awesome to see some support for something that has so many different views.

I do wish to say sorry for my assumption, as I am wrong i hold myself accountable.

No worries! I have no problem with someone saying "Aaron said this, and I feel that I've gone along with that." Although, keep in mind that a) not everyone agrees with me, b) I've been known to make mistakes from time to time, c) I don't have any authority over the rules whatsoever. =i)

[naga-nuyen]

You have been cool, I come down hard on myself lol. By the way Ping time is an awesome little run thank you!

[pbangarth]

I posted a Free Spirit PC I think is playable in THIS thread, rather than clutter the discussion here.

[Neurosis]

I'm fairly certain that the correct interpretation of the rules for free spirit PCs is the latter case. I came up with that mechanic because the alternative was the NPC method, where every stat goes up with Force, but I didn't like that method for two reasons. First, it made for a very limited variation in characters: you couldn't, for example, have a very strong, very dumb spirit, and every spirit that was highly charismatic would also be highly quick and extremely clever. I figured that the rules for NPC spirits were kinda like the rules for other NPCs: not every Lone Star cop has Logic 3, for example, and not every great dragon has Reaction 11. The second reason was simply because if we used the NPC rules where everything goes up with Force, each rating point would cost 100 BP or (new rating x 50) Karma; yes, I know that Street Magic says it only costs new rating x 10 Karma, but a) that's for NPCs, and b) that was written when attributes were cheaper anyway.

To those who believe this to create underpowered characters, I can only offer two ideas. First, you could try quoting previous comments about my opinion that it should have been 85 and begging your GM to give you the extra BP. Second, you could try being creative and maximizing your fairly unique advantages.

I suppose you could also try complaining about it on Dumpshock, but that hasn't seemed to work yet. =i)

So, wait....the 'Increase Attributes Individually' interpretation is balanced for the Free Spirit race costing 85 BP?

Does that mean that the 'Increase All Attributes With Force' option is balanced for the Free Spirit race as costing 250 BP?

[darthmord]

So, wait....the 'Increase Attributes Individually' interpretation is balanced for the Free Spirit race costing 85 BP?

Does that mean that the 'Increase All Attributes With Force' option is balanced for the Free Spirit race as costing 250 BP?

More likely whoever did the editing felt that 85 BP = Free Spirit was too generous and changed it to 250 BP = Free Spirit instead.

[Badmoodguy88]

The only answer to this that makes any sense is to play test it.
Whatever works.

[kzt]

Is play testing any SR rules allowed? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neraph]

So, wait....the 'Increase Attributes Individually' interpretation is balanced for the Free Spirit race costing 85 BP?

Does that mean that the 'Increase All Attributes With Force' option is balanced for the Free Spirit race as costing 250 BP?

That sounds good to me. I am more in favor of Option #2, but that's mainly because it follows the rules of all the spirits in the game much more closely.

But here's a problem with Option #1: the Force determines your Maximums, so you can only have 1 stat at 4 on a F4 spirit - the rest have to be 3s. You have to softcap all your stats. That may not be an issue for some people at their tables, but I find it to be problematic.

Also, I may be confusing #1 and #2. I think you guys can figure out what I mean.